Pandemic threat? Anyone else concerned?

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
How anyone, expert or not, can cite "numbers" and "statistics" related to CCP Virus deaths boggles the rational mind. Between countries, like Iran, Russia, North Korea and who knows how many others, not reporting accurately and CCP Virus deaths being blamed for everything from traumatic injury to cancer just because a test came back positive for the CCP Virus everywhere else, it's be turned into a politically greased football of disinformation.
 
Last edited:

Frankenscript

Known around here
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
1,288
Reaction score
1,197
Nice. Two super conservative hit pieces and an April-vintage WaPo article from before the impact of cloth masks on stemming transmission from asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic spreaders was understood.

What drives me nuts is that there are objective facts to be be seen, tested and verified... and some folks just want to ignore them. For god sakes man, look at the multiple spike in 2020 in that chart above, which coincides with people dying in their thousands from obvious effects of the disease like pneumonia, respiratory distress, etc.. These aren't people who randomly just got sick... And while yes most of the dead are older folks or those with compromised immune system, plenty of young and healthy die, and many more suffer debilitating illness from this thing.

Look, the Republican narrative was that this disease was a liberal conspiracy designed to take down Trump. Well, he lost, and the disease isn't going anywhere, anytime soon, until we get mass vaccinations going. So look at the FACTS man. The hospitals are filling up quickly. In RED states as well as blue ones. Every little thing we can do saves lives, and if wearing masks helps us avoid shutdowns, then masks it is. THEY DO WORK to reduce the spread.
 

Frankenscript

Known around here
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
1,288
Reaction score
1,197
How anyone, expert or not, can site "numbers" and "statistics" related to CCP Virus deaths boggles the rational mind. Between countries, like Iran, Russia, North Korea and who knows how many others, not reporting accurately and CCP Virus deaths being blamed for everything from traumatic injury to cancer just because a test came back positive for the CCP Virus everywhere else, it's be turned into a politically greased football of disinformation.
The problem stems from two big issues: Many states, due to ignorance, put into place confusing and sometimes nonsensical rules for deciding what a case or a COVID-19 death was. Mostly this only affected fringe cases, but it fuels a fire of disbelief in the numbers as a whole.
The other problem is that people who aren't part of the health system --like most of the people on this forum-- are unqualified to review the data that exist and draw valid conclusions from it in many cases. Most people don't understand how all of it fits together and they easily draw wrong conclusions. People with cancer die of COVID-19 and cancer is listed as a comorbidity. That means they died OF COVID-19, and happened to have cancer. These people would have lived longer with cancer but COVID picked them off. Rarely does a death certificate for a COVID-19 death have just one thing on it; it lists either effects of COVID-19 that led to the death or cormorbidities that predisposed the individual to the worst effects of the disease.

There was a big fuss that re-occurs every month or two about deaths showing up with poisoning/overdose as a co-morbidity. Ignorant people without understanding assumed this meant people ate drano or fentanyl or something and were falsely listed as COVID-19 deaths. WRONG. People with COVID-19 frequently have horrible headaches and fever and overdo the Tylenol (which poisons the liver); they also frequently overdo the phenylephrine (which is a lousy substitute for pseudophedrine because it is so easy to OD on it). The toxic effects of these drugs show up in the blood work and voila, a comorbidity shows up on the death certificate. These people wouldn't have chugged the tylenol or whatever if they didn't have COVID-19, so it is perfectly correct that these people be listed as COVID fatalities, whether they died "OF COVID" due to respiratory problems or whatever, or "OF THE OVERDOSE due to COVID". No COVID, no death in these cases, plain and simple.

Sure, once in a while a clearly wrong attribution is made, but these are rare. There are also lots of folks who have died due to COVID that have never been recorded as such for numerous reasons. It goes both ways.

My point is that unless you've been steeped in these issues for years, you aren't qualified to make pronouncements about them, any more than I would be qualified to disparage the design of the latest GM engine (I'm not a mechanic) or skyscraper design (I'm not a construction engineer or designer). I'm interested in these topics, perhaps, and I can follow along a conversation... but I'm not going to propagate conspiracy theories around any questions I have about them because I simply don't know enough on those topics.
 

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
It's not a conspiracy theory to say that Russia, Iran, et al, have fudged their numbers significantly. Nor is it conspiracy theory to say that too many cases are attributed the CCP Virus both by State and Federal agencies to make our own numbers questionable at best. It doesn't take a double blind study, a PhD in microbiology or mathematics, to see that. If you choose to ignore evidence that is readily visible and available, that is your choice as it is my choice to believe "conspiracy theories" like fudged numbers for political purposes. Even you have to admit that the CCP Virus immediately became a political football covered in grease and slime.
 
Last edited:

Jessie.slimer

BIT Beta Team
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
1,627
Reaction score
4,657
Location
Illinois
My point is that unless you've been steeped in these issues for years, you aren't qualified to make pronouncements about them, any more than I would be qualified to disparage the design of the latest GM engine (I'm not a mechanic) or skyscraper design (I'm not a construction engineer or designer). I'm interested in these topics, perhaps, and I can follow along a conversation... but I'm not going to propagate conspiracy theories around any questions I have about them because I simply don't know enough on those topics.
The experts had their chance. They have proven they have no idea what the hell they are doing, as evidenced by the ridiculous lockdowns for 8 months, er I mean "15 days to slow the spread". Or they are lying to us. Which one is worse?

Where's the proof of the bat origin theory? Why has this not been proven yet?

Their hand has been overplayed. Most people are coming to their senses, realizing that unless you are very old, this will not affect you. The politicians have known it. Thats why they aren't scared of it and continue to have maskless gatherings caught on video.

And you are welcome to criticize GM's latest engine. I would expect you to if GM locked the country down and DESTROYED hundreds of millions of lives with their misinformation about it.
 

David L

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Aug 2, 2019
Messages
7,932
Reaction score
20,757
Location
USA
The experts had their chance. They have proven they have no idea what the hell they are doing, as evidenced by the ridiculous lockdowns for 8 months, er I mean "15 days to slow the spread". Or they are lying to us. Which one is worse?

Where's the proof of the bat origin theory? Why has this not been proven yet?

Their hand has been overplayed. Most people are coming to their senses, realizing that unless you are very old, this will not affect you. The politicians have known it. Thats why they aren't scared of it and continue to have maskless gatherings caught on video.

And you are welcome to criticize GM's latest engine. I would expect you to if GM locked the country down and DESTROYED hundreds of millions of lives with their misinformation about it.
I am sticking with my Biden-China Connection/The Great Reset (Kill Small Businesses) theory. Call it what you want, Conspiracy Theory LOL Time will tell the true motive to all of this madness...


1606585126717.png


 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,017
Reaction score
47,477
Location
Floriduh
Nice. Two super conservative hit pieces and an April-vintage WaPo article from before the impact of cloth masks on stemming transmission from asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic spreaders was understood.
I find it humorous that you find any article a "conservative hit piece" when all it does is compare in simple terms the macro difference in the population deaths of the Hong Kong flu of 1968 vs the human-engineered and accidentally released Wuhan flu of 2020
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,017
Reaction score
47,477
Location
Floriduh
These 12 Graphs Show Mask Mandates Do Nothing To Stop COVID

Quoted below from the article.

Why don’t masks work on the general public? For one, if you read the fine print on most consumer masks you will see something along the line of “not intended for medical purposes and has not been tested to reduce the transmission of disease.” Masks can work well when they’re fully sealed, properly fitted, changed often, and have a filter designed for virus-sized particles. This represents none of the common masks available on the consumer market, making universal masking much more of a confidence trick than a medical solution.

If we actually wanted effective masks, then manufacturers should be conducting scientific tests evaluating masks specifically for their ability to reduce the spread of coronavirus. The Food and Drug Administration and CDC should be making recommendations on which masks to use and approving masks based on their scientific efficacy rather than promoting the wrapping of any piece of miscellaneous cloth around your face.

Many powerful institutions have too much political capital invested in the mask narrative at this point, so the dogma is perpetuated.

Effective masks, if they exist, should then be distributed to highly vulnerable groups for use only in rare and extenuating circumstances. There would be little point for the population at large to wear masks all the time because while focused protection may be possible, it is not possible to eradicate the virus at this point or stop its spread.

Our universal use of unscientific face coverings is therefore closer to medieval superstition than it is to science, but many powerful institutions have too much political capital invested in the mask narrative at this point, so the dogma is perpetuated. The narrative says that if cases go down it’s because masks succeeded. It says that if cases go up it’s because masks succeeded in preventing more cases. The narrative simply assumes rather than proves that masks work, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

The narrative further ignores places like Sweden and Georgia, which never required masks in the first place, and it suppresses new scientific evidence if it doesn’t support desired political results, such as data from the world’s only randomized trial investigating if masks actually protect from COVID-19. Even a Nobel laureate has been canceled because his COVID charts and data were found to be undesirable.

History does not bode well for times that politics meddles with science. Martin Kulldorff, a professor at Harvard Medical School and a leader in disease surveillance methods and infectious disease outbreaks, describes the current COVID scientific environment this way: “After 300 years, the Age of Enlightenment has ended.

In the end, it will be the loss of credibility in our scientific institutions, and the unnecessary division they have sowed among us, for which masks will be remembered.
 

David L

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Aug 2, 2019
Messages
7,932
Reaction score
20,757
Location
USA
These 12 Graphs Show Mask Mandates Do Nothing To Stop COVID

Quoted below from the article.

Why don’t masks work on the general public? For one, if you read the fine print on most consumer masks you will see something along the line of “not intended for medical purposes and has not been tested to reduce the transmission of disease.” Masks can work well when they’re fully sealed, properly fitted, changed often, and have a filter designed for virus-sized particles. This represents none of the common masks available on the consumer market, making universal masking much more of a confidence trick than a medical solution.

If we actually wanted effective masks, then manufacturers should be conducting scientific tests evaluating masks specifically for their ability to reduce the spread of coronavirus. The Food and Drug Administration and CDC should be making recommendations on which masks to use and approving masks based on their scientific efficacy rather than promoting the wrapping of any piece of miscellaneous cloth around your face.

Many powerful institutions have too much political capital invested in the mask narrative at this point, so the dogma is perpetuated.

Effective masks, if they exist, should then be distributed to highly vulnerable groups for use only in rare and extenuating circumstances. There would be little point for the population at large to wear masks all the time because while focused protection may be possible, it is not possible to eradicate the virus at this point or stop its spread.

Our universal use of unscientific face coverings is therefore closer to medieval superstition than it is to science, but many powerful institutions have too much political capital invested in the mask narrative at this point, so the dogma is perpetuated. The narrative says that if cases go down it’s because masks succeeded. It says that if cases go up it’s because masks succeeded in preventing more cases. The narrative simply assumes rather than proves that masks work, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

The narrative further ignores places like Sweden and Georgia, which never required masks in the first place, and it suppresses new scientific evidence if it doesn’t support desired political results, such as data from the world’s only randomized trial investigating if masks actually protect from COVID-19. Even a Nobel laureate has been canceled because his COVID charts and data were found to be undesirable.

History does not bode well for times that politics meddles with science. Martin Kulldorff, a professor at Harvard Medical School and a leader in disease surveillance methods and infectious disease outbreaks, describes the current COVID scientific environment this way: “After 300 years, the Age of Enlightenment has ended.

In the end, it will be the loss of credibility in our scientific institutions, and the unnecessary division they have sowed among us, for which masks will be remembered.
Notice he says MAY Save Lives!, same reason it is called Practicing Medicine...My glasses get so foggy from all of my Covid Breathe escaping I need to try the band-aid trick..

1606586618553.png
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,017
Reaction score
47,477
Location
Floriduh
10 Hypocrite Dems Who Prattle on About Masks and Lockdowns But Personally Act Like They're All BS

Democrats publicly applaud mask mandates (U.S. Senate Democrats), losses of freedom (Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, Chris Cuomo), and cutting off power to your house for having a party (Eric Garcetti). They take pleasure in virtue-signaling to the public about wearing masks, distancing, and not commingling for meals, yet don’t actually follow their own advice when they believe the cameras are off.

Stay separated, they say. Don’t sing or “exert” yourself with others! But these scolds give away the game when they do nothing and say nothing about antifa and Black Lives Matter screaming, chanting, rioting, looting, and burning things down.

Rules for thee but not for me.

With this in mind, we begin our list of Ten Hypocrite Democrats Who Prattle on About Masks and Lockdowns But Personally Think They’re BS with:
 

Oceanslider

Known around here
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
6,904
Reaction score
23,599
Location
Southern California, USA
You will notice the the cases of flu and pneumonia is maybe 5% of normal, if that. So are those cases being counted as Covid-19?
No doubt. The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as Wuhan Flu deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life.
 

David L

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Aug 2, 2019
Messages
7,932
Reaction score
20,757
Location
USA
You will notice the the cases of flu and pneumonia is maybe 5% of normal, if that. So are those cases being counted as Covid-19?
Funny but I had the same conversation on Turkey Day, the only argument I got is since everyone is Social Distancing/Masking Up/Staying Home, the Flu is contained/gone away, problem with that argument is why is Covid still around?
 

Frankenscript

Known around here
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
1,288
Reaction score
1,197
You will notice the the cases of flu and pneumonia is maybe 5% of normal, if that. So are those cases being counted as Covid-19?
No, unless there is a positive COVID-19 test, it's not a COVID-19 case, with rare exceptions. Most of the non-positive-test cases on the books were from early in the pandemic before the tests were widely available, and frankly many of the doctors didn't bother with it because the cases were both obvious and the test result wouldn't have impacted treatment at the time. Now, treatment to some extent depends on the diagnosis.

Let's explore the flu being 5% of normal... why might that be? It's because for the last bunch of months, most people are wearing masks and doing some sort of social distancing. Not everybody, everywhere, but MUCH MUCH MUCH more than normal. This is one of those very clear pieces of evidence that wearing a simple cloth mask is VERY GOOD (but, not perfect) at reducing droplet spread, and diseases like flu and COVID-19 are primarily spread by the exact sorts of wet droplets that simple masks capture.

Most of the references that @bigredfish posted about mask efficiency missed the point. The masks help by reducing droplet spread by infected people, by capturing droplets "on the way out" rather than filtering out virus "on the way in" to healthy mask wearers. If you talk, sneeze, sing, or cough, you expel wet droplets that cloth can capture. The droplets dry in the air in a matter of seconds to minutes depending on condition if not caught by the mask. Cloth masks do relatively little to filter "incoming" air as the wearer breathes, but hey even a 30-50% reduction is a lot better than nothing. Still, it's the efficiency at reducing outbound spread from infected folks that makes it so necessary that everybody wear one right now, because many infected people don't know they are infected. It's all about source control.

The definitive article review of this with latest guidance is here:


"Seven studies have confirmed the benefit of universal masking in community level analyses: in a unified hospital system,38 a German city,39 a U.S. state,40 a panel of 15 U.S. states and Washington, D.C.,41,42 as well as both Canada43 and the U.S.44 nationally. Each analysis demonstrated that, following directives from organizational and political leadership for universal masking, new infections fell significantly. Two of these studies42,44 and an additional analysis of data from 200 countries that included the U.S.45 also demonstrated reductions in mortality. An economic analysis using U.S. data found that, given these effects, increasing universal masking by 15% could prevent the need for lockdowns and reduce associated losses of up to $1 trillion or about 5% of gross domestic product.42 "

And, I agree with BigRedFish that leaders should lead by example and not do ridiculously unsafe gatherings.

@bigredfish, just because some places that require masks still have COVID spikes doesn't mean masks are not working... though it may mean the masking being used isn't enough, by itself. The important question is what would the COVID-19 surge look like without the measures in place... Well, this year we are masking and distancing and the flu rate has dropped to less than 10% of normal for this time of year in the US, and flu and COVID-19 spread the same way, more or less... HMMM.... Almost like dots waiting to be connected.
 

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
Another problem that I see with that kind of thinking(?) is that some percentage of people who test positive are asymptomatic which further skews the data in the wrong direction. Like I said, a greased political football that cannot be trusted as anything close to accurate.
 
Last edited:
Top