Alarm system for shop

Discussion in 'Alarm & Security Systems' started by TechBill, Apr 29, 2016.

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  1. TechBill

    TechBill Pulling my weight

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    A friend of mine is looking to install an alarm system in his shop building and asked me what a good DIY brand to go with

    It a two car garage shop with one door and windows but he would like to to be able to send him an email when something trigger it.

    I believe we should aviod touch screen keypad as well too since he work with greasy hands but can be disarm using phone app if needs etc.

    Any brand recommendation? Or a alarm website to purchase from with good support if needed?

    Thank you
    Bill
     
  2. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    Does he want central station monitoring with the system, or just receive email/text messages?

    I recommend the Honeywell Ademco Vista 20p with the Eyez-On Envisalink 4 module. The envisalink will allow him to control the alarm system from his phone and receive text/email alerts without a monthly cost (This requires an internet connection).

    If he wants central station monitoring, I still recommend the Honeywell Vista 20p, however, I would use the Honeywell iGSMV4G internet and cell communicator and go with AlarmGrid for central station monitoring.

    I also recommend using Dual Tech motion detectors such as the Honeywell DT8035 (Hardwired version) or the Honeywell 5898 (wireless version) because of the type of environment the sensors are in. Using Dual Tech motion detectors will reduce the chance of a false alarm.

    http://www.shieldlab.com/forum/ is also good forum to read up on if you're going to help him plan/install the system.
     
  3. TechBill

    TechBill Pulling my weight

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    Thank you you for your feedback and I will check other forum too

    He just want a basic system to alert him via email or text if there were a break in or human activities within couple feet of his shop outside. He not sure about camera but I did recommend at least one camera pointing toward shop door

    A good phone apps feature is a must because he Deaf like myself. He does have internet at home but I plan to install a wireless internet bridge between his house and the shop. it like about 250 feet apart so a roof mount directional antenna was one thing on my mind to recommend to him unless he want to go burial Ethernet cable instead

    Bill
     
  4. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    If that's all he wants, I recommend the Vista 20p with the envisalink 4 combo. He can get alerts via text/email and control it from his smart phone and/or computer without paying a monthly fee.

    If he wants to know about activity outside his shop, his best bet is to install cameras in the location he wants to monitor.

    If you go the wireless bridge route, check out Ubiquiti. They make wireless bridges designed specifically for that purpose.
     
  5. TechBill

    TechBill Pulling my weight

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    Thank you for the feedback, I will review it and if it all looks good then make this brand recommendation to him.

    I am very familiar with Ubiquiti products since one of my job is networking technician for a big communication company. We specializes in video conference and multi-broadcasting.

    Bill
     
  6. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    Aren't there different firmware versions (9.18 vs 10.23) of the Vista 20p that make a difference? What about the Vista 21ip? or the Vista 128btp? Is the older Vista 20p better than the newer versions for doing free self monitor with the option to add paid cellular monitoring service when starting from scratch? How many sensors can be used? What other wired and wireless sensors for the vista system do you recommend? I'm planning on doing the same thing.
     
  7. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    There are several different firmware versions of the Vista 20p. I'm not sure what the differences are between 9.18 and 10.23, but I believe starting with firmware version 9.12 adds support for Total Connect 2.0.

    No, the older versions are not better for free self monitoring. I recommend getting the latest version of the board regardless if you're going to self monitor with the Envisalink 4 or get Central Station monitoring with a Honeywell communicator.

    The Vista 21ip is the same as the vista 20p except the 21ip has a built in Honeywell Alarmnet IP communicator. It also has a spot on the PCB board for a GSM card. The 20p you have to connect the IP/GSM communicator to the ECP bus.

    In order for me to recommend sensors to you, I need to know the environment they're going to be installed in, and what they're going to protect.


    The Vista 128BPT is a panel designed for a large commercial/Residential installation. The vista 20p will be good enough unless you plan on having more than 48 zones.
     
  8. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    First and foremost, I have about the same question as the OP so I just wanted to learn more about what was suggested for him without HJ his thread.

    Specifically, this would be used to protect a house and garages. All doors would be protected with some sort of wired sensor. With 3 sliding glass doors and multiple windows the garages and several rooms would also have motions sensors in them.

    -Is it necessary to use glass break sensors when there will be motion sensors in the same rooms/garage?

    There will be one sensor outside on a cover that I'll put over where the Internet connection goes into the house, so if there is tampering with that, I'll at least get a warning before they clip the Internet.

    It appears cellular monitoring of this system is about $35/mo vs simply safe at $15, so unless I'm wrong about the cost of cellular monitoring, I wouldnt care about the gsm cellular monitoring on the vista system.

    Expansions for zones on the Vista 20p appear to cost about $80 for wired and $80 for wireless.... can you use both wired and wireless expanders at the same time as long as you don't exceed the 48 zones? Or is it limited to one or the other? If the cost of the Vista 20p is at $150 and the zone expanders put it over $300, wouldn't it be wiser to just get the Vista 128, or will it not work with the envisalink 4 to self monitor?

    Are there different zone settings? IE: I want all sensors active when I'm gone, but only want door/window switches active (motion sensors deactivated) when I'm sleeping at night.
     
  9. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    In my opinion, yes, it is necessary to use glass breaks in rooms with motion sensors. Door/Window sensors and Glassbreak/Shock sensors are designed for perimeter protection. Motion detectors are designed for interior protection. A properly installed alarm system will cover the entire perimeter and only rely on motion detectors as the last line of defense. When the system is armed at night, or when you're home, the motion detectors won't be active, only the perimeter sensors will be monitored, however, there are exceptions to this rule (night stay mode). Night Stay will allow you to select a specific motion detector(s) to activate at night time when you go to sleep. For example, at night time everyone sleeps on the 2nd floor and you have a motion in the basement you want active at night, night stay mode will allow this motion detector to trip the alarm, however it will ignore the rest of the motions in the house.

    If the sensor is going to be exposed to the elements, make sure it's rated for it. If the sensor is going to be wireless, you're going to have to use the Honeywell 5816OD

    The monthly cost of the Vista system is dependent on which alarm company you choose to use and the extra features you select. When I first signed up for AlarmGrid, I selected the $30.00 a month package. This package gave me internet/Cell monitoring with Total Connect 2.0 (remote arms/disarms, email/text notification etc) The $35.00 a month package now includes all of that plus the option to remotely control z wave devices. That package use to be $40.00 a month, but it looks like they combined those two packages into one and made it $35.00 a month. If you call and ask, they might offer you the $30.00 a month plan without z-wave.

    Geoarm would monitor the system with IP/GSM for about $23.00 a month, however, I choose AlarmGrid due to the better customer service and other reason.

    Yes you can use both hardwired zone expanders and a wireless receiver at the same time. No, it would not be wiser to get the Vista 128, you would still need to buy the zone expanders. Do you plan on the system being monitored by a central station, or are you going to self monitor with the Envisalink?

    Yes, there are many different zone settings, in the manual these are called "Zone Types". You can even create a custom zone type. Google vista 20p installation manual and read up on all the zone types. The basic ones are Entry/exit, perimeter, Interior follower, Interior With Delay etc.
     
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  10. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    As far as sensors go, I usually stick to the Honeywell/Ademco brand for hardwired sensors, however, GE, Amseco, Bosch make reliable sensors. Wireless sensors must be the Honeywell 5800 series, manufactures cannot be mixed and matched.

    I also recommend using Dual Tech motion detectors and adding fire detection to your system.
     
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  11. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    I plan to self-monitor with Envisalink 4. I think I can get away with running wires for the sensors (but it's good to know I can add wireless in the future if it comes down to it.)


    I don't think I would benefit much from a more expensive "Tuxedo" keypad because I don't plan on using any z-wave devises. I think an Alphanumeric keypad will make it easier and less frustrating to program vs "English numeric". Within the last year the 6162 has been recommended by a few; however, it was discontinued. So should the older 6460 be used instead or should I wait until the 6162 "replacement" comes out? (or another keypad?)


    Can I use a Key Fob with any keypad?


    It appears as though the zone expanders only expand 8 zones at a time?


    Will the Envisalink alerts distinguish which specific zone has been triggered?
     
  12. tangent

    tangent Known around here

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    Yes, you want an alpha keypad for programming and imho daily use. I feel like the 6460 is just an uglier version of the 6160.

    IDK why the 6152 was killed, maybe it made some things too easy for the end user. Maybe installers couldn't handle it or the limited panel version that were compatible were too restrictive. Maybe they just decided to put more resources into the lyric team. You need an RF receiver to use a keyfob or wireless sensor. This can be standalone or integrated into a keypad. keypads with receivers have "RF" in the model eg: 6160RF or 6150RF. You can usually get the 6150RF for less. Sometimes you can buy a keypad bundled with fobs. Ebay is usually the cheapest option for the consumer.

    If you're worried about the number of zones, the built in wired zones support doubling and you can put multiple sensors together on a single zone. You see plenty where all the windows on the top floor are on the same zone or multiple glassbreaks / smokes on the same zone.
     
  13. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    Tangent pretty much summed it up. However, I would advise against using the zone doubling feature. If you're going to have more than 1 or 2 zone expanders, I recommend getting a second enclosure as space will get tight in the main control panel. Yes, each zone expander expands up to 8 hardwired zones. I also recommend getting at least a 12V 7 or 8AH back up battery. I'm not a fan of the 12v 4AH battery that's commonly included in the bundle deals. I usually get my batteries from apexbattery.com. You also need to make a power budget if you're going to be installing a lot of powered devices (Keypads, Glassbreaks, motions etc). Depending on how many powered devices you install, you may need an AUX power supply.

    The Envisalink will distinguish which specific zone has been triggered.

    Besides intrusion detection, do you plan on adding any Fire/CO detection?
     
  14. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    I don't plan on using more than 2 zone expanders. (Honeywell 4219)

    I'll grab a 6162RF Keypad (about $100) off ebay (might eventually get a second keypad later on.)

    I don't like wireless because of batteries, cost, and RF JAMMING. Is using a Keyfob and 6162RF keypad putting the system at risk vs non RF (hacking/jamming)?

    Is there a good rule of thumb about how many motion sensors and glass break detectors the 20p can handle on the single standard power supply?

    Upon research last year, I bought a CA6150 DEFENDER CO detector. However, I need to replace my fire alarms (1 upstairs, 1 downstairs) (20 years old, one barely chirps anymore). They are "FireX" 3 wire. I would like to add a third to the attached garage as well. What do you recommend?
     
  15. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    The batteries should last about 5 or more years depending on the sensor and how often it gets triggered. RF jamming and hacking is possible, however, very unlikely. There's a lot higher chance of an unauthorized person getting a hold of your keyfob and using that to disable your alarm system (which is why I don't have one). Having a wireless receiver on your system alone would not allow someone the ability to hack into it.

    I believe the max current draw for the vista 20p is 650mA, this includes keypads, zone expanders, motion detectors, the envisalink, glassbreaks and any other powered device (not including the siren)

    If I remember off the top of my head, the max current draw for glass breaks is somewhere around 25mA. It really depends on which make/model glass break you decide to use. Once you figure that out, search online for the spec sheet of the detector and add up the max current draw.

    Those are 120v hardwired smoke detectors, they do not belong on the alarm system. If you want fire detection on your system, you need to either install 2 or 4 wire hardwired smoke detectors (I prefer system sensor) or install wireless smokes (Honeywell 5808W3). Only zone 1 on the vista 20P can handle 2 wire smoke detectors (up to 16). There are advantages and disadvantages to both 2 and 4 wire smokes, I'll explain in a different post if you decide to hard wire your smokes.

    If you're looking for advice on which brand of 120v smoke detectors to replace them with, I can't recommend any since I don't use 120v smokes. However, make sure they are Photoelectric smokes or a combination of Photoelectric/Ionization.

    Do not install a smoke detector in a garage, you're looking for a false alarm. You need to install a heat detector or detectors in your garage (System Sensor 5601P for hardwired, Honeywell 5809 for wireless).

    Keep in mind, any CO or Fire detectors should use Zones 1-8 on the control panel. You don't want to put fire zones on the zone expanders.
     
  16. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    What are the advantages and disadvantages to both 2 and 4 wire smokes?

    I'm planning to run wires for everything anyways. Am I foolish to wire everything on the system? Or would it be advisable to use some wireless sensors? Would it only require the addition of a wireless expander (model #?) or would I need more for it to work with the 20p?
     
  17. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    2 wire smoke detectors only use 2 conductors to connect to the alarm panel. Those two wires are for both and the power and zone. When hardwired smokes activate, they latch into alarm and you will notice a steady red LED at the detector. In order to restore normal operation, the detector must be reset. With two wire smokes, all you have to do is punch in your user code twice at the keypad and they will automatically reset. Placing an EOL at the last detector will provide proper supervision for all the detectors on the zone. Disadvantage- 2 wire smokes can only use Zone 1 on the Vista 20p.

    4 wire smokes are a little more complicated. 4 wire smokes use two wires for the zone, and two wires for power. In order to reset 4 wire smokes, you're going to have to program a reset relay for each zone you want to reset. On top of that, you're going to need to have a power supervision module at the last detector on top of the regular EOL (End of Line Resistor). 4 wire smokes can be used on any hardwired zone (That's the only advantage).

    After a 4 wire detector trips, you're going to have to manually reset the detector, then punch in your code on the keypad to clear the alarm. In my opinion, 4 wire smokes are a PIA.

    This is what I would do. I would wire 1 location to utilize the two wire smokes, then I would hard wire all the heat detectors for the system (Attic, garage, Kitchen, boiler room, etc) and use wireless smokes for the rest (Honeywell 5808W3)

    Of curse you could upgrade to the Vista 128BPT and use V-plex polling loop or serial addressable smokes but that's going to drive up the cost considerably. Those are really designed for very large residential or commercial installations and you won't be able to use the Envisalink.

    No, it's not foolish to run wires for everything. I always prefer hardwired over wireless when it comes to security.

    If you purchase the 6162RF or 6160RF those keypads have a built in wireless receiver. Those receivers can handle an unlimited amount of wireless zones. They are only limited to the amount of zones the panel can handle.
     
  18. tangent

    tangent Known around here

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    +1 for 2 wire smokes. Some functions like clean me may not work with different brands.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2016
  19. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    You should be able to use a wide variety of 2 wire smokes with the Vista 20p. I recommend the System Sensor series, specifically the System Sensor 2WT-B (this one has a built in 135 degree heat detector).
     
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  20. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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  21. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    What are you going to use the wire for? That wire is good for wiring the power supply and sirens. It's overkill for standard door/windows contacts, keypads and motion sensors. you can use 22/4 for those.

    Anything fire related (wired smoke or heat detector) should use 18/2 or 18/4 red fire alarm rated wire.
     
  22. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    Does it make a difference if it is solid/stranded COPPER vs CCA Copper Clad Aluminum wire?

    I figured if I have to run wire, I might as well have a the heavy gauge wire. I read 22 gauge can get too thin and fragile. I guess I'll order some 20gauge as a happy medium to satisfy minimum requirements and added strength/integrity and then just get a shorter length 18/2 for the siren. Is the Copper Clad Aluminum Chinese wire from ebay appropriate or do you know of a better source/wire?
     
  23. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    22/4 alarm wire should be fine. I've had 22/4 security alarm wire run in my house for the past 20 years without an issue. DO NOT USE Copper Clad Aluminum EVER!!!!!!!!!


    I don't remember if people preferred solid or stranded but either should be fine.

    https://www.jmac.com/Burglar_Alarm_Cable_s/9324.htm

    I believe JMAC supply is a good website to purchase it from
     
  24. tangent

    tangent Known around here

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    Check craigslist with search terms like: cable, wire, cat-6, cat-5, cat-5e, cat5, cat6, cctv, 22/4, 22-4.
    Searching for alarm or security will turn up thousands of cars, if you filter those out there may be something with those search terms too.

    Ethernet wire isn't great for alarms, but if somebody's selling a bunch of it they may have alarm wire too. Some alarm panels have notes about using twisted pair wire like cat-5 and how it shortens the maximum length you can run the wire (due to the capacitance introduced by the twists).

    Honestly 22-4 is fine, just don't yank on it too hard or bend it too sharply. Say no to CCA. Solid is more common, but both work. Stranded can be trickier to terminate.
     
  25. zero-degrees

    zero-degrees Known around here

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    Some states or local codes require solid cable for fire systems, you may want to try and check where you are located.
     
  26. Cammer

    Cammer n3wb

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    Been busy with other project and alarm system went on the back-burner. I have a vista 20p panel, envisalink4, and a Honeywell 6162rf keypad sitting in boxes. I will order Honeywell Genesis 11041101 22/4 Stranded Unshielded Cable, White 1000' for the KEYPAD and SENSORS. I'll put in a 2 wire detector on ZONE one as suggested with wireless heat sensors in the garage. I have a 3bdrm 1500sqft house with a full finished walkout basement. I was going to put both upstairs and downstairs detectors on zone 1.

    Don't the smoke/fire detectors need to be wired with 18/2 SOLID (not stranded) wire? I plan to buy some 18 wire at the same time as I order the 22/4 and I was hoping to use the same spool of 18 wire on the smoke/fire detectors as I do the Siren(s).

    The keypad will be the wireless receiver for any wireless sensors I use. It also came with several KEY FOBS. Where should I place this KEYPAD? It will be used to program the system and then arm and disarm via the KEY FOBS. Should this keypad be hidden with the alarm panel/place high in a central location in the attic or ceiling of basement? Will I need other keypads? Should this 6162rf be located upstairs in the common area? (I have open floor plan with entryway, living, dinning, kitchen all in the same room)

    What door sensors are suggested, I would like ones that get drilled into the frame and hidden. I have a lot of windows and 3 sliding glass doors so I am going to depend on motion sensors a lot for starters ... which wired motion sensors are recommend? The more research I did on motion sensors, the less I liked them with all the "false detection" stuff that makes them less sensitive.... I would rather a more sensitive sensor, I have NO PETS.... so... anything that MOVES in the house needs to get picked up system is armed and in "away" status.

    Thanks Again
     
  27. tangent

    tangent Known around here

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    I'd choose solid over stranded, it also costs less than 22-4 stranded.

    As for the smoke detectors, if this is residential and a supplement to line powered smoke detectors you don't need to be too worried. The length of the wire and number of detectors will determine what gauge wire works. If this was commercial then you've have to worry about the UL standards and silly things like mandates that the wire be red in some locals.
     
  28. MaryChong

    MaryChong n3wb

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    Well, you should go for a alarm system with cameras and sensors.
    Here is one that might be suitable: Reolink ADK8-20B4 1080p Video Smart Alarm System – Reolink Store

    This alarm system includes 4 cameras, 3 door/window sensors, 2 PIR sensors and 3 key fobs. I think it is really helpful!
     
  29. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    You should place the keypad where it is convenient for you to arm/disarm the system and or to view system status (you can always add more keypads if needed). I would not hide the keypad in the attic or in the ceiling. The only thing that needs to be hidden/secured is the control panel/communicator.

    Are the door sensors going to be hardwired or wireless? You're looking for recessed door contacts. Honeywell 951WG is a hardwired recessed door contact and the Honeywell 5818MNL is the wireless recessed door contact.

    I recommend the Honeywell DT8035 motion detector. This detector is Dual Tech which makes it less likely to false alarm (this will not make it less sensitive to detecting an intruder). The DT8035 is also pet immune, however you can turn that feature off with a dip switch and adjust the sensitivity to your liking. However, I strongly suggest you follow the manufacture instructions when mounting the detector and adjusting the sensitivity for your application (Motion detectors have to be mounted at a certain height etc).
     
  30. smiticans

    smiticans Getting the hang of it

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    No offense, I wouldn't trust that system to protect a dog house. I doubt its even UL listed for Residential Burglary.
     
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