Camera planning - is this a decent start?

Moonville

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Rural weekend home in the woods, not seen from any other houses and not seen from any roads. I have upgraded the security system to a Vista 20P and LTEM-PA communicator. I have signed up for monitoring through Alarm Grid.

Gate at state highway, 650-foot gravel lane to house. Besides house (it's a mobile home), there is a detached garage and a storage shed.

The goal is to get identifying pictures in the case of a break-in.

I'm assuming I want an NVR and a dedicated PC and I'd prefer nothing to be wireless unless it makes sense to do so. I want to be able to view any of the cameras from my primary home, if that's practical.

I'm hoping I can get by with five cameras now and add more later.

Question: Am I on the right track with the following cameras?

(all exterior)
1. Front door
2. Back door
3. Shed
4. Garage
5. Entrance gate or somewhere in the farthest half of lane to capture license plate image (not true LPR)?
 

Moonville

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If you have a NVR, what will you do with the dedicated PC?
I thought from going through the recommended reading on this site (Cliff Notes, Wiki) that an NVR plus a PC was recommended. I may be misunderstanding the functions of the PC and the NVR. If that's the case, it's because I have trouble wrapping my mind around things in the digital world and it takes a while for things to sink in.
 

wittaj

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It's a good start.

People either go the NVR route or a dedicated PC running a VMS software like Blue Iris. And some run both for redundancy.

You will want more cameras. Basically two cameras overlapping so if someone tries to disable one, they are caught on another.

Do you want coverage at the gate 650 feet away? If so, that is a camera at that spot or a powerful PTZ if you have line of sight.

Here are a few guidelines and considerations as you piece something together.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

To identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

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My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.
  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. It is highly recommended to purchase 1 varifocal camera and test it at each location to further define the coverage you need/want.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...
 

Moonville

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I appreciate the very detailed reply, @wittaj - it helped a lot.

People either go the NVR route or a dedicated PC running a VMS software like Blue Iris.
If I don't go with an NVR, how do I power the cameras?

Do you want coverage at the gate 650 feet away?
I think I do and there is no line of sight to the gate. Is a wired camera the only practical choice?

It is highly recommended to purchase 1 varifocal camera and test it at each location to further define the coverage you need/want. So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.
I'm not clear on the "as an optical zoom" part. Do you mean that I should buy a zoom camera or I should buy a fixed focal length for that pre-determined distance? I know what digital zoom is and I do NOT want that.
 

wittaj

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If you do not have an NVR, you can power the cameras with a POE switch or POE injector for each camera.

Wired would be the preferred choice. Wifi is problematic for these types of cameras. The exception is if you go with a ubiquity nanostation. Or you use a powerline adapter to run data through your electric lines.

Yes, optical zoom mean changing the focal length to get clearer shots at something at a distance. Optical zoom is good, digital zoom is bad. A common varifocal is 2.8mm-13mm focal lengths, but they do have ones that go a lot higher as well if needed.

Unless you know for sure that a fixed cam focal length is sufficient for your coverage area, the varifocal cameras are not that much more and provide more flexibility to optically zoom (make the focal length larger) to get a closer shot. And then if you ever upgrade, you have more flexibility with the varifocal than say a 2.8mm fixed lens.
 

Moonville

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Besides Dahua and Hikvision, what brands are recommended?

Several Dahua 5442 models are listed in post #6 and I attempted to look up their equivalent 2MP but I couldn't find a place that lists the models and prices in one place. Are there resources for the recommended brands that might be something like a comparison table or a buyer's guide?

Is there a rule of thumb regarding camera wires running parallel to each other or other wires? I ask because if I trench 600 feet I will consider installing a second conduit for future use and there may be AC in a second conduit.
 

wittaj

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Many of us purchase from a member here @EMPIRETECANDY. I provided a link below to his Amazon store so you can look up various cameras. He sells Dahua and Hikvision OEM. Those two companies are the current go-to from a price/benefit/quality standpoint. You can run ethernet parallel without too much problem, but you would want separation for any electric.

Loryta and Empiretech are Dahua OEM sold by Andy. Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon and AliExpress store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you by from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon (or AliExpress), they are Andy cams and Dahua OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from an authorized dealer.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua website, thus proving they are real Dahua. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provided that to Andy for sale before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site


 
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dudemaar

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the ipc-t5442t-ze-varifocal camera from Andy is excellent imo. some reading material below. Dont be scared to use the search at the top of the page :)



 

Flintstone61

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maybe a rough diagram of approx distances your wanting to identify people/cars.
Every layout has it's quirks. My first camera was huge mistake. A 2Mp PTZ, that I was trying to do too many things with. Here is it out of focus when a Guy with a Postal carrier key tried to gain entry to our mail boxes at a 74 uinit Condo... 3rd or 4th visit. had already changed the locks with the Postal Inspector.
Ended up with a 5442 2.8mm Overview and a 5241e-z12e for capturing every plate that comes in the property.mar84.jpgScreenshot 2021-07-10 004350.pngScreenshot 2021-07-10 004320.pngScreenshot 2021-07-09 192821.png
 
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Wow! Loving this place and the welcoming vibe. I too am looking to put a 8-10 camera/BI setup in the near future and this level of detail regarding level setting expectations on camera specifics as well as vendor suggestions are awesome.

@wittaj can you share high level specs on the off lease machines and their performance. I’ve read choosing your HW but am looking for real world examples. As I look at those machines vs buying new, I’m getting analysis paralysis. Also, concerning adding storage, are there any limitations to keep in mind sans available slots and sata spots. I’m thinking an 8 TB
 

wittaj

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Wow! Loving this place and the welcoming vibe. I too am looking to put a 8-10 camera/BI setup in the near future and this level of detail regarding level setting expectations on camera specifics as well as vendor suggestions are awesome.

@wittaj can you share high level specs on the off lease machines and their performance. I’ve read choosing your HW but am looking for real world examples. As I look at those machines vs buying new, I’m getting analysis paralysis. Also, concerning adding storage, are there any limitations to keep in mind sans available slots and sata spots. I’m thinking an 8 TB
Generally, the lease equipment has less bloatware on it (which you should use the media creation tool anyway to get rid of it), and are generally beefier than a consumer equivalent because they were purchased for a business so the specs are usually better suited to 24/7 heavier operation. And some of these were probably never used or rarely. Some companies purchase computers in bulk as it is cheaper and then sell off what they don't need, so they were never used.

Preferred option is to get a 6th or 8th generation CPU (6xxx or 8xxx CPU) or newer, but many here are running a 4th generation just fine. Find what you can afford.

Go with tower over a laptop. Many will say stay away from the SFF, but if you get one with a CD drive in it, you can unhook it and put a HDD in its spot. My SFF has an SSD and two HDDs.
 
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