Confused of IP cam options (bullet vs. turret, fixed vs. varifocal, EU suppliers, etc.)

[kammi]

Hello!

I am considering to purchase my first PoE ONVIF IP camera for outdoor surveillance. I plan to cover only my front yard with the camera, and preferrably observe when and which kind of traffic there is next to the yard. There is practically only one good spot for the camera, and the front yard is within 15 meters (50 feet) from that spot (the road would be then at a distance of approximately 18 meters or 60 feet). Accoring to the IPVM calculator, a focal length of 2.8mm would be definitely too small to "recognize" any person or vehicke at the road with 4MP resolution. Even a 4mm focal length camera with 4MP resolution would be capable to just "observe" at that distance. An 8MP camera with 4mm focal length might be a viable option for the front yard what comes to recongition distances, but everything beyond that would likely too far for anything else. The front yard is also rather wide, so the camera cannot have too large focal length either. Fortunately, the front yard is never completely dark, although it can be extremely weakly illuminated during a clear moonless night when the lights of a nearby town don't reflect from clouds.

I have studied this forum for recommendations. Now I know the image sensor size should be at least 1/1.8" for a 4MP camera and 1/1.2" for an 8MP camera. Unfortunately, the more I read the more confused I am. Some people say a varifocal camera would be a good option for a beginner, since it allows to adjust the focal length optimally. On the other hand, varifocal cameras have somewhat worse dark imaging properties due to their smaller aperatures. During daytime, such a feature can be actually beneficial due to increased depth of field. How is the focal length actually adjusted, via screws or software?

For instance, IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED 8MP camera is a equipped with a fixed focal length 8MP 1/1.2" sensor and lens: Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera
As seen through the comparisons, its "sweet spot focus" makes the background a bit blurry, at least compared to a similar Hikvision camera. Can the focus be adjusted or is it always "fixed"?
Here (Worlds First Review - Dahua DH-IPC-HFW5449T1-ZE-LED / IPC-Color4M - 4MP Full Color At Night Vari-Focal Bullet Cam), a IPC-HFW5449T1-ZE-LED 4MP camera is shown to perform worse at dark than the camera above, but has a better DOF thanks to being a varifocal camera. What I know, both of these Dahua cameras have excellent Quality-Price-Ratio. Which of the cameras would you recommend in general, or can you suggest alternative models (Dahua or Hikvision)? I am clueless how to do the selection, but aware that purchasing only one camera means compromises.

Another question is the form of the camera. I plan to camouflage the camera and not to use any visible LEDs it might have for covert usage (vandalism is not a problem here, I just do not want people to see immediately at night that I have a camera). Can any turret camera be mounted on walls and shelter roofs while having the image correctly tilted? Would you recommend a turret or a bullet camera for my scenario?

As I live in EU, I would prefer a supplier that has competitive prices in the EU region. Likewise, if the camera happens to break, a supplier from EU could be nice to deal with the warranty matters. Can you recommend an European supplier? Have other EU customers purchased directly from Andy? How do warranty things work with him or Chinese suppliers?

 

[sebastiantombs]

A turret camera can be mounted in almost any required position. I have many mounted to soffits and some mounted to trees so horizontal or vertical, and anywhere in between, can be easily done. The camera portion of a turret is a ball and is totally weatherproof, incidentally, to gaps around the outer housing mean nothing in terms of weather proofing.

I would recommend the Dahua 5442T-ZE for a 4MP varifocal camera. I have several and they are excellent cameras with great performance for a relatively reasonable price. In terms of pricing contact Andy, a ember here. He ships worldwide and has excellent pricing, shipping and product support.

Andy
IPCT Thread

EmpireTech Andy

Dahua products

ipcamtalk.com

Andy's Store

Amazon.com

King Security/EmpireTech Store

Amazon.com

Email
Andy Wang kingsecurity2014@163.com

 

[The Automation Guy]

As you have discovered, the large sensor, high resolution color cameras that are currently available seem to only come in fixed lenses that have a pretty wide field of view. That may change over time as more models are added, but I don't think any of the current models would be a great fit for your stated goal.

There are plenty of options available in other cameras that use IR to supplement their low light performance. I would agree that the Dahua 5442T-ZE would be a good choice with enough "reach" to capture footage at 50-60 ft that can "recognize" or even "identify" a subject depending on the field of view you set it to. The fact that it is a varifocal camera will allow you to really dial in the right mix of field of view and detail in the footage for your exact location.

Once this camera is in place and dialed in, you might decided that a large sensor, high resolution color camera would be a good compliment to the primary camera. But I don't think the color camera alone will give you the results you are looking for.

EDIT - if you haven't played with the IPVM Calculator, I suggest you try it out. You can overlay exact models of cameras to determine on a satellite image of your property to get a pretty decent idea of how the camera might perform (coverage wise). You can try out different camera very easily.

 

[wittaj]

Many here will argue that given the technology and sensor sizes that 4MP is really the sweet spot for these types of cameras and that 8MP doesn't offer you that much more improvement. You still cannot see individual hairs and facial pores for example like you can with a DSLR or even a camera phone. Too different applications and purposes.

Getting the proper MP/sensor size along with the proper focal length for the area you want to capture is more important than MP. In some instances, it is a 2MP that is the best camera.

See this thread on the importance of focal length over MP along with general recommendations for cameras based on distance:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[tigerwillow1]

Many here will argue that given the technology and sensor sizes that 4MP is really the sweet spot for these types of cameras and that 8MP doesn't offer you that much more improvement.

Short version: I agree. Long version:
To make my own comparison, I ran a 5442 4MP 1/1.8 sensor side-by-side against a 5842 8MP 1/1.8 sensor. After nitpicking a lot of images, the result followed the sensor size vs. pixel count rule-of-thumb. The 5442 gave better images in low-light and with IR light, while the 5842 gave somewhat sharper images with good lighting. It could, for instance, allow reading a license plate further away, with the two cameras having the same FOV. If your priority is for either best day image or best night image, the choice is easy. For me it was a toss up, so I lean toward the 5442 just because it costs less. I prefer a fixed focal length camera whenever its FOV is appropriate for the setting, because it's often physically smaller in the same camera series, lets more light through the lens, and doesn't have the risk of going out of focus.

I also have a color-4k-X camera and its background is not blurry. Perhaps you're mixing it up with the dual-lens camera that does have a focus sweet spot. The 4k-X beats the 5442 for low light sensitivity, and is just as good as the 5842 for image sharpness. My favorite where its FOV is appropriate.

 

[wittaj]

My comment is more in terms of many people here are of the opinion that the increased cost and storage requirements for 8MP versus a 4MP versus the differences in picture quality don't have people rushing out to replace their 4MP with 8MP cameras. Many still feel the 5442 series is the current king of cameras, but part of that is probably due to the varifocal options that exist.

Are there places for 8MP - sure. Like every camera, selecting the correct camera for the field of view is key.

I have a 4K/X not for the 8MP it provides but for its low light performance. It simply doesn't need much light to give an incredible night color image. It blows away any camera I previously had at that location in terms of low light performance.

But most of my cams are varifocals and as you know, that option isn't available yet in 4K, so I am in no need to rush and replace.

The 4K/X in a 6mm is slated to come out in a month or so and if it is able to perform like the 4K/X that is current out, then maybe I will replace a few cams that I have to run in B/W.

But the point is people shouldn't be chasing MP and should be chasing the optics that gets it to that point.

 

[kammi]

Thanks to all! It seems that I should decide between a camera like the 5442T-ZE (or its big brother with an 8MP cell if daylight performance is more important) that is both varifocal and hence capable to even recognize passers-by thanks at night to its IR leds, and a fixed focal length full color camera such as the 4K/X. Currently, I feel an 8MP camera might be an overkill what comes to image resolution itself, but as you pointed out the recent models provide outstanding night imaging performance with their 1/1.2" sensors. The 5442T-ZE seems to be a workhorse many people can trust.

I have still a few questions. How rugged is a varifocal lens system in general? I have read it should be used more like a "set once and let it be" manner in contrast to a true PTZ camera. Have you encountered issues in long term usage like the lens motor getting stuck?
Finally, do all Dahua/Hikvision cameras can upload the triggered events (images or videos) via SFTP (SSH) and not only via non-secure FTP? I have plenty of secure storage space but it is not accessible via FTP. I plan deploying ZoneMinder at some point, but it would be nice to use the camera in the stand-alone mode also.

Edit: By blurry background in 4K/X I mean this comment regarding its DOF: Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera
However, the latest still images at the end of that thread look extremely crispy.

Edit2: Are the control pages of Dahua/Hikvision cameras fully usable in Linux? Are there still features that require Internet Explorer or Windows?

 

[tigerwillow1]

Are the control pages of Dahua/Hikvision cameras fully usable in Linux? Are there still features that require Internet Explorer or Windows?

I can give a bit of information with Dahua cameras on Linux Mint using Firefox. I wouldn't want to pitch it as reliable info because it could be dependent on the browser version and camera firmware versions, plus I only made a spot-check, as opposed to thorough test.

The following camera models appear to work. There's a couple second delay for the live video display to appear.
5442
5231
4k-x

The following models ask for a plugin, which does not load. No camera image is available. Some settings that don't need the camera image appear to work.
4231
4431
5231 (with older firmware than the ones that did work)

 

[kammi]

I ended up purchasing a varifocal 5442T-ZE (from Andy) as some of you recommended. Initial tests are very promising, viewing a full resolution live stream works flawlessly in Linux, and the GUI seems professional. The picture is really crisp. I also bought a PoE injector that has been recommended here (TL-POE160S) and 100% copper solid core CAT5e cable. I will keep doing further experiments.