Getting started in the ipCam world

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Hi everyone.

finally getting around to implementing that home security camera system I promised my wife 10 years ago. I will say I have an idea of what I want that seems to expand and change as I learn more.

I do own Blue Iris software, and bought an older i5-6600 sff pc to run it on with 8gb ram and a 120gb SSD for the OS / 2tb data drive. Right now the pc is windows 10 pro


i Have two ReoLink cameras a 510a & 520a. A poe (actually a pos as they don’t work well at all)

I recently bought two more Annke C800 i91BN dome cameras on the recommendation of a YouTube video that said they were white box Hikvision cameras, and they cost inside my price range. At least these work. I am going to need a third camera at some point in the near future to replace the ReoLink 510a that is still installed but seems to cause more problems that it solves.

my goal is to have 3 outside cameras and possibly 2-3 indoor cameras for my install. Not sure if this is the right place to start asking questions but I do have lots. I think I want to go with the DeepQuestAI to do people, animals and if possible, package detection For the front porch. I have seen all sorts of different ways people have done the setup and am not sure what is best practice. I don’t have a budget to go while hog on this and would like to keep costs down but still have functionality.

can the DeepQuestAI work on a 6th gen i5? How much ram do i need to add? Or would it be better to run on a raspberry Pi4?

how is the best way to setup the cameras, I’ve seen YouTube vids saying going one way and then two months later contradict what was just said On their next video.

does it get simpler and is it ever done that you can just use it without more tinkering?
 

sebastiantombs

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:welcome:

Remember, cameras are for surveillance, an alarm system is for security.

Blue Iris, in the latest versions, has DeepStack capability/integration. Just install and click to get it going. How well it might work on the i5-6600 I can't say, but I had a lot of problems on an i7-6700 and went to the GPU version using an NVidia card I have.

There is not set formula for setting up a camera. Each setup is specific to the installation location of the camera. The basics, frame rate, bit rate, iframe rate are the only real "standard" and even those vary from person to person and setup to setup. Shutter speed is the next key setting and it needs to be at 1/60, 16.66ms, or higher to get non-blurry motion video at night.

It never is simple given all the variables.


Welcome to the enchanted land of video surveillance lunatics, good guys, nut jobs and miscreants (yes, I fit into at least three categories). There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here and knowledge and experience are shared constantly. That's how I got to be a lunatic (already a nut job and miscreant).

Start out by looking in the WiKi in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a ton of very useful information in there and it needs to be viewed on a computer, not a phone or tablet. The Cliff Notes will be of particular interest although the camera models listed there are a generation old at this point. The best way to determine what kind of camera you need in each location and where each location should really be is to buy one varifocal camera first and set up a test stand for it that can be easily moved around. Test using that, viewing using the web interface of the camera, during the day and at night. Have someone walk around behaving like a miscreant and see if you can identify them. There is also information for choosing hardware and securing the system along with a whole bunch of other good stuff.

Don't chase megapixels unless you have a really BIG budget. Chase sensor size and bigger is better. To confuse you more sensor sizes are listed in fractions so do the basic math to be sure, 1/2.8 is bigger than 1/2.7 or 1/3. General rule of thumb is that a 4MP camera will easily outperform an 8MP camera when they both have the same sensor size. Reason being that there are twice as many pixels in the 8MP versus the 4MP. This results in only half the available light getting to each pixel in an 8MP that a pixel in the 4MP "sees".

A dedicated PC doesn't need to be either expensive to purchase or to run. A used business class machine can be had from eBay and various other sources. The advances made in Blue Iris make it easily possible to run a fairly large system on relatively inexpensive hardware which also makes power consumption low, as in under 50 watts in many cases. The biggest expenses turn out to be hard drives for storing video and a PoE switch to power the cameras and, of course, the cameras themselves.

The three basic rules of video surveillance cameras-

Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Any camera can be made to "see" color at night if the exposure time is long enough, as in half a second or longer. Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Avoid Reolink, Foscam, SV3C, Nest, and all the other consumer grade cameras. They all struggle mightily at night and never get anything useful on video. Here's a link to a whole thread debunking Reolink in particular.

Compiled by mat200 -

Avoid WiFi cameras, even doorbell cameras. WiFi is not designed for the constant, 24/7, load of video that a surveillance camera produces. At best, with two cameras on WiFi, they will still experience dropouts multiple times daily. Murphy's Law says that will happen at the worst possible moment.

Lens size, focal length, is another critical factor. Many people like the wide, sweeping, views of a 2.8mm lens but be aware that identification is problematic with a lens that wide. Watch this video to learn how to analyze each location for appropriate lens size and keep in mind that it may take two cameras to provide the coverage you need or desire. Another factor that effects view angles is the sensor size. Typically larger sensors will have a larger field of view in any given lens size.

The 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill". They are 4MP and capable of color with some ambient light at night. The 2231 series is a less expensive alternative in 2MP and does not have audio capabilities, no built in microphone, but is easier on the budget. The 3241T-ZAS has similar spcs as the 2231 and has audio. There are also cameras available from the IPCT Store right here on the forum and from Nelly's Security who has a thread in the vendors section.

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

3241T-ZAS Review

Less expensive models -

VPN Information Thread
 

SouthernYankee

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Send the reolink junk cameras back if you can. Do not waste your time trying to get them to work well with Blue Iris.

 
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Buy a Dahua 5442 series camera one at a time as wallet permits. You will be amazed at the onboard AI that detects humans & cars. Doesn't do porch packaging, though.
Andy here on IPCT is the vendor that will sell you cheaper than advertised price if you send him a bag of 2lb skittles.
Before purchasing ANYTHING...ask here first and get opinions. Let's save you some money!
 

user8963

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@sebastiantombs

i dont understand the guy in the video. he has more knowledge than other youtube influencer and prepare the videos very well. according to some videos i watched he also makes good/professional looking installations... but then he uploads videos like this all the time:


sponsored by reolink ? so much effort for a reolink installatioin? also not sure why he installed 4 cameras on that spot :blankstare: not sure why he didnt think about the pipe problem earlier? :wtf:

Whats really strange... he has one sentence at the end "no missed frames ... beautiful nice image .. nvr captures everything just perfectly" ... sounds that he know more than he tell about the reolink cameras :cool:
 
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TVille

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@sebastiantombs

i dont understand the guy in the video. he has more knowledge than other youtube influencer and prepare the videos very well. according to some videos i watched he also makes good/professional looking installations... but then he uploads videos like this all the time:

...

sponsored by reolink ? so much effort for a reolink installatioin? also not sure why he installed 4 cameras on that spot :blankstare: not sure why he didnt think about the pipe problem earlier? :wtf:
Sponsored, yes. Admitted he is sponsored, no. Deceptive advertising, absolutely. I suspect he is monitoring these forums, he said he had been kicked off here, but I am sure he is back watching here.
 
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:welcome:

Remember, cameras are for surveillance, an alarm system is for security.

Blue Iris, in the latest versions, has DeepStack capability/integration. Just install and click to get it going. How well it might work on the i5-6600 I can't say, but I had a lot of problems on an i7-6700 and went to the GPU version using an NVidia card I have.
You do bring up quite a few good points. For me I look at the camera's as part of a security system in it allows me to identify what is going on without me having to put myself into potential harms way. Like if I hear a commotion outside, I can see if it's someone trying to break into my garage or car. An alarm just makes a noise for deterrence. But it does a pathetic job of being able to identify what it was that triggered it in the first place. A bang on a car will set of an alarm. Was it a person, or a racoon jumping on the car. I don't know but now I am awake and have to decide do I get up and go outside to see what or simply turn it off to stop pissing off the neighbours.

I live in the magical land of Canada where healthcare is free and everything else is about double what you in the use pay. I found my i5 for $200, but to get the same computer with an i7-6700 the price shot up to $575. I came to the conclusion that the i7 isn't 3x the cpu of the i5 and I sure as heck am not paying that premium. When I bought it, I didn't even know about DeepStack and was just trying to get something a bit faster from the intel NUC from 2010 that clearly didn't have the power to run Blue Iris. I was trying to get it to work with the ReoLink at the time but I have since determined that both were not up to the task.

The PC I have is a classed as a SFF so it can only take the low profile cards. I don't know if it's worth spending the $150 on an Nvidia GT-1030 card for the computer will give me a faster better system running of Cuda GPU than just using a stand alone Raspberry Pi4 that I already own.

As well, I will just throw in the question as I don't know if it's just cosmetic or will effect the software. Right now I have a bullet style camera on the outside garage wall pointing at an angle towards the back door. with the field of view that you get from the camera, you can see enough down the driveway and have the back part of my house inside the active part of the picture. But as this is a bullet camera, you have the ability to effectively rotate the camera in both the X / Y / Z axies to have the image view so up is up etc. My wife for cosmetic reasons wanted dome camera. these are really designed to mount on a ceiling to maintain the rotation of the image. if you mount them on a wall, and rotate the lens to point in the right direction, you can end with a picture that is on an angle. in my case it's ends up with an image that is 30-35 deg off of aligned. is this considered ok? I will attach some pictures if it would help?
 

sebastiantombs

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First, avoid dome cameras, especially with your weather conditions. The domes get covered with rain, snow, fog droplets and so on. On top of that if they're exposed to sunlight the dome, eventually fogs from UV exposure discoloring the plastic. Stick with turret cameras. Most of my cameras are turrets and they're mounted both to horizontal and vertical surfaces. They can be pointed in any direction, x-y-z axis rotation, to achieve any field of view no matter which way they're mounted. Turrets do need an appropriate mounting box to hold the RJ connector unless you don't mind 3/4" holes in the house. The same is true of dome cameras.

Don't try to cover too much area with one camera. The typical camera has a 2.8mm lens. To make an identification the subject needs to be within three meters or less of the camera. Mounting cameras higher than 2.5 meters also prevents getting useable identification shots. If you're just looking for an overview, that's a different story, but the time may come when you need to identify who did what not just that something happened. You're probably not at home 24/7, normally, so it is still surveillance and not security.
 
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Just a puzzled look????

The typical camera has a 2.8mm lens. To make an identification the subject needs to be within three meters or less of the camera.
I have seen far more times than not on the TV where they show a highly pixilated image of a person committing a crime and asking if anyone can identify this person. so if crime stoppers can use what looks like a 0.5mp camera to get results, then I would be pretty sure that a 4mp camera that is covering a 30 foot by 30 foot area should be able to get enough detail to cover me.

I have put a dome camera inside my workshop mainly for the reason that wanted an IP67 rating to try and keep the dust out. it doesn't get sunlight directly onto it so I doubt it should get any colouring and protect the lens. But it doesn't make sense why you think that dome will just get foggy. I guess if you are installing them in 97% humidity weather then you will be trapping in the moisture in the air and when it gets cooler, the moist air inside will fog up. The secret is in installing them properly is it not. I have quite a few friends with Dome cameras and they don't talk about having to disassemble them to remove the fogging on the cover. The only thing that I have heard from any of them is spiders and webs. They also said that this as much a problem with bullet cameras as they have had with the dome. Non of them own a turret so I can't speak for them.
 

looney2ns

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Just a puzzled look????



I have seen far more times than not on the TV where they show a highly pixilated image of a person committing a crime and asking if anyone can identify this person. so if crime stoppers can use what looks like a 0.5mp camera to get results, then I would be pretty sure that a 4mp camera that is covering a 30 foot by 30 foot area should be able to get enough detail to cover me.

I have put a dome camera inside my workshop mainly for the reason that wanted an IP67 rating to try and keep the dust out. it doesn't get sunlight directly onto it so I doubt it should get any colouring and protect the lens. But it doesn't make sense why you think that dome will just get foggy. I guess if you are installing them in 97% humidity weather then you will be trapping in the moisture in the air and when it gets cooler, the moist air inside will fog up. The secret is in installing them properly is it not. I have quite a few friends with Dome cameras and they don't talk about having to disassemble them to remove the fogging on the cover. The only thing that I have heard from any of them is spiders and webs. They also said that this as much a problem with bullet cameras as they have had with the dome. Non of them own a turret so I can't speak for them.
And that pixelated picture most likely would not hold up in court. Again, domes should be avoided outdoors. For all the reasons already given many many members here have experienced problems with domes. Our local police department had domes outside of their precinct office. They posted a video capture the pure video taken from that dome when an incident happened between an officer and a suspect and view that dome it was a cloudy awful mess.

But thanks for stopping by to argue.

Again, study this.
Cliff Notes
 
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Just a puzzled look????



I have seen far more times than not on the TV where they show a highly pixilated image of a person committing a crime and asking if anyone can identify this person. so if crime stoppers can use what looks like a 0.5mp camera to get results, then I would be pretty sure that a 4mp camera that is covering a 30 foot by 30 foot area should be able to get enough detail to cover me.

I have put a dome camera inside my workshop mainly for the reason that wanted an IP67 rating to try and keep the dust out. it doesn't get sunlight directly onto it so I doubt it should get any colouring and protect the lens. But it doesn't make sense why you think that dome will just get foggy. I guess if you are installing them in 97% humidity weather then you will be trapping in the moisture in the air and when it gets cooler, the moist air inside will fog up. The secret is in installing them properly is it not. I have quite a few friends with Dome cameras and they don't talk about having to disassemble them to remove the fogging on the cover. The only thing that I have heard from any of them is spiders and webs. They also said that this as much a problem with bullet cameras as they have had with the dome. Non of them own a turret so I can't speak for them.
domes outside = bad. why?
1.) Reflective glare from outside sources creating lens flare because there is more surface area on a dome to bend the light than a turret, for example. Think porch light, passing car headlights, anyone with forehead mounted light, sun reflected from nearby car windshield/house window, etc. Yes, it happens on a turret but it will happen 5x's more on a dome.
2.) Blowing dust, rain, snow: these will accumulate all across dome itself due to the large surface area and drip down to the bottom curve to drop off blocking or distorting camera images. Yes, it happens to turrets but turrets have the extra benefit of smaller lens surface area and have a lip around the outside of the lens housing to assist with this problem.
3.) Someone with a bat could whack at a dome and smash it to pieces in a single swing. Not so with a turret made of metal (higher end Dahua cameras, for example) as it would take more direct effort.
This applies to outdoor cameras.
There is no benefit of a dome camera over a turret, except cheaper if made of plastic. Or inside JCPenny dept store where the dome lens is darkened so folks do not know what way the lens is pointing.

I had a crime event happen at my house using a 4mp camera with a wide view 2.8mm covering 50x50 at night and day. Even at 20', the facial identification was blurry and pixelated. If I gave such footage to the police, they would put a APB out for The Man-Bear-Pig. Any camera wide view camera (2mp, 4mp, 8mp, 50mp) will have that problem at 3am at a 20' distance with or without lighting. Science due to a camera's focal length. Wide area camera's DORI is what...less than 10'? This is where folks need to realize 2.8mm vs 3.6mm vs 6mm, fixed vs varifocal focal length so that facial identification is possible at greater distance than just someone's face 2inches from a camera.
 
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sebastiantombs

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The pixelation is a result of digital zoom. The original, unzoomed, is totally useless as is the digital zoom. The same thing happens with a 4MP. I'm glad you "know" that was a .5MP camera in your example. We're trying to help you but you seem to know what you want and expect. I think those expectations are a little misplaced. The physics of lenses, light and camera sensors cannot be violated despite what you see on TV or in the movies.
 
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Thankyou for the advice. It is a bit like telling someone who just bought a matag washing machine that particular brand/model is garbage and you should have bought something else. I now know going forward not to make the same mistake, but it's a bit too late as they are already purchased (just like the ReoLink camera's were) and short of finding someone else to pawn them off on, the money has been spent and they are what I have to deal with right now.

I am getting a 3rd camera to replace the really garbage Reo-Link 510a that happens to be a bullet camera, and i was planning on just getting an Annke C800 bullet camera as that seems to be the best fit. Sadly, I am limited to budget and where I can purchase from, so I don't get much of a choice but a wide angle lense that will be fine for the applicatuion use that I have. I don't for one second think that I am going to get any facial recognition from any hardware that I install. My thought is that having something that shows you what happened is going to be far better than having nothing.

To put everything into some form of perspective. My wife and I bought two new cars a few years ago. The week after we took delivery some idiot ran into the side of my wifes car at a red light and took off. I had installed a Viofo dashcam into both cars as I concluded that you need to have some protection for what happned not only if you get into an accident, but also if someone does something to you. I was very fortunate that i had decided to buy a dashcam as you have no idea when you will need them. The video footage wasn't the clearest, but it gave a good enough picture of the back end of the offending car as it drove away, and the video footage showing them clipping the side of my wifes car and speeding away. I showed the video footage to the police and gave them the somewhat blurry picture of the license plate. The police figured out what car it was and who was driving. They clamed that they didn't hit anyone, and there was only minor damage to their car. but the fact there was some video footage of what really happened and it was enough to get them charged and for my insurance company now to be on the hook for 100% of the repair costs as we could prove that we were not at fault. Now had I had a non wide lense on the dashcam, i could have gotten a crystal clear shot of the persons license plate but would not have any footage of them actually clipping the side of the car. I would have been out $3500 in damage repair and on the hook for lost of accident free discount on the insurance.
 

Mike A.

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Thankyou for the advice. It is a bit like telling someone who just bought a matag washing machine that particular brand/model is garbage and you should have bought something else. I now know going forward not to make the same mistake, but it's a bit too late as they are already purchased (just like the ReoLink camera's were) and short of finding someone else to pawn them off on, the money has been spent and they are what I have to deal with right now.
You'll end up with a bunch more cams than you think now anyway. Can always use it for an overview-type camera.
 

sebastiantombs

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Before you buy the Annke contact Andy from EmpireTech. He's a member here and can ship anywhere in the world, well a few strange exceptions. His pricing is good for Dahua and some Hikvision as well. He stand behind what he sells and supports as well. He also works with members here to improve the firmware on Dahua and often gets firmware updated and available for IPCT members that never gets published on the Dahua site.

IPCT Thread

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King Security/EmpireTech Store

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Andy Wang kingsecurity2014@163.com
 
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user8963

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Remember:

Annke C800 is 2,8mm ...
I tested the new turret c800 with audio a few weeks ago... in my opinion the night view is now worser than old c800 without audio ... also the IR-light is now worser. And turret now plastic like HILOOK series
 

whoami ™

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The PC I have is a classed as a SFF so it can only take the low profile cards. I don't know if it's worth spending the $150 on an Nvidia GT-1030 card for the computer will give me a faster better system running of Cuda GPU than just using a stand alone Raspberry Pi4 that I already own.
Don't waist your money on a Nvidia GT-1030, your better off with the Nvidia Quadro P400 because they're cheaper. The limiting factor will be memory, you'll never push the cores to 100% with this kind of workload. The GT-1030 and P400 both have 2gb of memory so they will equally work the same for you.

With only 2gb of memory you wont be able to decode very many cams at once, I'm thinking 4-6 but dont quote me on that. If your looking to decode video and not just use the GPU for compute workload like AI with Deepstack the Nvidia Quadro T600 is the what I'd be looking at for a SFF PC. It has 4gb of GDDR6 and is 40w
 
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