IR differences question

[nbstl68]

Hi, I have a few IR related questions based on my observations in the forum thus far.

So I'm reading a lot of different reviews here...lately seeing a lot of Hikvision or the Huisun cameras people are showing have 1, 2, 4 large round IRs whereas a lot of what I see sold in mass (or like the Q-Sees I had) have like 30 tiny ones all around the lenses in a circle.

Could someone explain to be any pros\cons to these two different configurations?
Is one configuration "better", more powerful create a better or clearer image, reduce wash out or something like that?


And what the heck is a "Hidden" IR and what is the point? It looks like you basically cannot see the physical bulb, but of course as soon as they are on it is no longer hidden...What's the point or advantage there?

Also, saw "laser range illumination" on some fancier PTZs? What the heck is that and how does it work?

Thanks!

 

[zero-degrees]

@nbstl68 I'll give you a shorter high level answer.

1. The smaller IR's seen in the majority of cameras are not as powerful, but draw more power to operate. The majority of these smaller bullets and domes with the 27 Ir's in them do not have the same distance allowance as the large matrix IR's.

2. Everyone obviously has opinions on "quality" however a lot of cameras with a matrix IR provide cleaner, nicer images at night then traditional ir ring clusters IMO. The matrix IR's also provide a more even IR coverage and are not as prone to the halo effect you sometimes see with the customers around the lens. They also draw less power and typically are rated at longer life spans.

3. Best thing to do is look around the forum at examples and form your own opinion. Personally I prefer Matrix IR's when possible as I believe they provide a more even coverage and cleaner IR image then the customer IR's.

4. The Hidden IR you refer if I understand your question is normally just a black lens front on the camera so that you do not see the IR lens/cell during the daytime. However, at night when the IR is active/on you will see a lighter reddish or purplish glow from behind the lens. In my opinion all this does is try to "hide" the camera as without it the IR can glow a bright red identifying camera location in some situations at night - again, this is more personal preference based on mounting location.

5. Some higher end PTZ cameras advertise "laser IR" as the best of the best. They state that is provides a much cleaner more detailed/illuminated area especially far away. However, some will argue that cameras with powerful Matrix IR's can provide close to the same, if not the same clarity. For example the Huisun camera has 4 IR's. However only 2 are active at a time depending on if your camera is focused close or far. That is because the IR's are configured differently/lens based on what/distance they are illuminating at.

If you spend a little time googling you can find a lot more detailed info on different style IR's and comparisons vs getting more "opinion" answers like you'll get here.

Hope this helps some.

 

[nbstl68]

Thanks!
It helps to know the terminology too for Googling...so "Matrix" and "ring Cluster" IR are the official terms?

Is there such a thing as truly hidden or invisible IRs though? I've read a few posts something about 850 vs 950 NM where one is not visible to the human eye or something like that.

 

[klasipca]

It's just known by IR leds and the rest is up to marketing teams at different companies who come up with some elaborate names for high power leds. (laser, matrix, exir etc...) Even something new that you will see a lot such as Laser IR is not really a true laser just high power IR LEDs. There are probably true Laser IRs, but you will not find them in budget cams. Personally, I stay away from the cams with dozen or more small IR Leds and only buy cams that offer a few bigger IR Leds. 940 IR is truly invisible (no red glow), but they don't seem to be widely available in the cams.

 

[nbstl68]

Thanks Klasipca
"940 IR is truly invisible"
Interesting...I keep thinking though, if it is "invisible" does that somehow equate to dimmer and then lower performance visibility image degradation maybe?
I'm interested in this b\c I want to put a "hidden cam at the end of my drive at the street and a big red light at night would freak people out and or make it quite vulnerable.
I should prob just look for some very low lux options where I could turn off IRs.

(Been reading your other postsabout the Huisun PTZ too...maybe solve the problem that way by having it at the house but leave it zoomed into the street...that's maybe 60ft away though so not sure if I'd still get a quality image....Sounds like you were not all that impressed w\ the 2016 Gen 2 unfortunately huh?)

 

[atom]

Thanks Klasipca
"940 IR is truly invisible"
Interesting...I keep thinking though, if it is "invisible" does that somehow equate to dimmer and then lower performance visibility image degradation maybe?
I'm interested in this b\c I want to put a "hidden cam at the end of my drive at the street and a big red light at night would freak people out and or make it quite vulnerable.
I should prob just look for some very low lux options where I could turn off IRs.

(Been reading your other postsabout the Huisun PTZ too...maybe solve the problem that way by having it at the house but leave it zoomed into the street...that's maybe 60ft away though so not sure if I'd still get a quality image....Sounds like you were not all that impressed w\ the 2016 Gen 2 unfortunately huh?)

I use a few 940NM IR illuminators, and while they are invisible to the naked eye unless you're up close to them, they provide approx. half the illumination on-camera for the same power and field of view as 850NM.

 

[klasipca]

Thanks Klasipca
"940 IR is truly invisible"
Interesting...I keep thinking though, if it is "invisible" does that somehow equate to dimmer and then lower performance visibility image degradation maybe?
I'm interested in this b\c I want to put a "hidden cam at the end of my drive at the street and a big red light at night would freak people out and or make it quite vulnerable.
I should prob just look for some very low lux options where I could turn off IRs.

(Been reading your other postsabout the Huisun PTZ too...maybe solve the problem that way by having it at the house but leave it zoomed into the street...that's maybe 60ft away though so not sure if I'd still get a quality image....Sounds like you were not all that impressed w\ the 2016 Gen 2 unfortunately huh?)

At 60ft it will be very much doable with mini PTZ, it can provide a decent picture much further away.

I was impressed with 1st gen and don't get me wrong 2nd gen is an improvement it's just doesn't offer enough upgrades to jump on it by upgrading from 1st gen. If you are new to mini PTZ then I would absolutely go with 2nd gen.

 

[Kawboy12R]

940 IR is truly invisible (no red glow), but they don't seem to be widely available in the cams.

They throw less light than 850nm and so take more power and more LEDs to give a decent picture at night. It's very rare for cameras to have 940mm LEDs built-in. Samsung is the only maker I can think of off-hand that offered 940nm cameras. Better to have a cam that can turn the 850s off and use an external 940nm light if you really don't want red LEDs showing. I bet Samsung got a lot of consumer questions/returns from their cams from people saying the night picture wasn't good because the LEDs "obviously" weren't working. And some 940nm illuminators DO have a little bit of red glow while others can't be seen by eye at all.

 

[nbstl68]

Klasipca, is this the same PTZ I was reading in another thread someone was trying to use for makshift LPR?
I'm interested in a solution for that too and have been reading up on it a little.

For LPR I'd either have to have a cam at\near the street w NO visible IRs...but if the PTZ could be configured to do the job from the house zoomed into the street then the IR would not matter.

 

[klasipca]

Probably, I don't have a need for LPR so I didn't really follow the thread, but for coverage at 60 ft you will be fine with this mini ptz.

 

[Arjun]

What's the difference between the IR configuration in this cam,

and this one,

What differentiates the two IR-configuration? Is one a newer tech than the other?

I see most 2.8mm cams employing the lesser count IR compared to the 3.6mm

 

[Dodutils]

the bottom one is "old style leds" less powerfull but smoother light, the other one uses today's high powered SMD LED but this one is unusual as usualy you see less SMD LEDs (usually 4) with each one inside a lens that focus the light to some angle (90/60/30°)

 

[Arjun]

Thanks, they essentially output the same amount of night-vision, right?

the bottom one is "old style leds" less powerfull but smoother light, the other one uses today's high powered SMD LED but this one is unusual as usualy you see less SMD LEDs (usually 4) with each one inside a lens that focus the light to some angle (90/60/30°)

 

[Arjun]

What's interesting is that where are the IR LED in this one,

 

[Dodutils]

Thanks, they essentially output the same amount of night-vision, right?

I would say top one may be a bit stronger

 

[Dodutils]

What's interesting is that where are the IR LED in this one,

Behind the black plastic

 

[Arjun]

Lorex has a sample footage of the top one posted, but it doesn't look as good as the older-style (even though lighting is more evenly distributed in the newer one).

 

[Arjun]

Interesting, my speculation is that this is what they mean by invisible IR LED's, then at night they still light up and give that red glow

Behind the black plastic

 

[Dodutils]

Interesting, my speculation is that this is what they mean by invisible IR LED's, then at night they still light up and give that red glow

Yes you'll see red glow behind the plastic, it act like black windows in a car.

 

[Arjun]

Here's the night-time footage with the newer-LED's (notice how its hard to pick up facial recognition)

I would say top one may be a bit stronger