Medical Simulation Setup

[Scoticus]

Hi all, first time poster.

I'm the technician at a medical simulation center. The cameras that we're using for capturing the simulation sessions are almost unwatchable svideo PTZ camera's, and some logitech webcams. I'm looking to completely overhaul the system, but I'm going to have to do it on very limited funds.
I'm essentially trying to recreate this system:

Training in Motion - Education Management Solutions

EMS Training in Motion: Portable simulation for versatile training. Adapt to any environment with precision and flexibility.

www.simulationiq.com

But it won't be portable, and also hopefully won't start at $20,000 for three yi clones and a laptop (seriously, that's the starting price). Video surveillance systems seems to be the best option in terms of multi-camera recording, network playback, affordability.

I've already read through a ton of the forums, and I think I'm getting an idea of want I want to do but would cherish some further advice for this more unique situation.

The makeup will be 3 rooms. Two smaller simulation rooms (about 15x15, maybe smaller) and one larger room (about 30x30). I would like 2 PTZ camera's in each of the simulation rooms, as well as 4 out in the larger room. I've been agonizing over whether to go with a NVR or PC based setup. We will likely always have a PC available, but not one that we can dedicate to the system. What I'm think is to have an NVR, with a PC frontend. I'm liking the functionality of Blue Iris, is it difficult and make any sense to use Blue Iris as a frontend for an NVR? Rooms are lit slightly brighter than a typical office.

The ceiling is all panels that are super easy to access so wiring won't be an issue. I will likely be able to set up a number of ethernet outlets in our facility connected to a switch in order to access the system from all over.

I would like the camera's to be more like video camera's then security. I'm guessing frame rate would be the big difference between the "look" produced from a security camera and something like a camcorder. Are there any brands of PTZ camera's that look more like someone trying to take a video then someone surveying an area?

I would also like to capture decentish audio. I know it won't be broadcast quality, but something better than the built in mic on a webcam. I would love it if the audio was separate from the video, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen. Is there any way of doing this? If I have to go with a built in mic, what is the audio quality like on a typical PTZ camera? Are there NVR's with separate audio inputs?

For the NVR end, it's a bit dicier depending of if I use a soft front end or not. But are there applications that easily allow bookmarking and playback of bookmarked parts? I see that the Hikvision line has an SDK, so might be able to create my own solution, but ready made would be better. The main purpose of the video would be for debriefing, where they can show exactly what went wrong or right during the scenario.

I would love to fit this all in under $5000 (our non-capital expense limit). So it's 8 camera's, and an NVR with the above capabilities. 1080P would be plenty, we don't have any 4k displays yet anyway. Is this realistic, close or waaaay off? I understand answers to parts of these questions are already answered (I've been perusing this forum for almost 3 days now, amazing resource), but this is kind of a different situation and a lot of the solutions would not work in this specific case.

Any help any of you could provide would be incredibly appreciated.

 

[looney2ns]

Depends on how much zoom you need.
This has audio in and out, can use separate mic, great camera: Review-Dahua SD42212T-HN 2mp Starlight 12x PTZ | IP Cam Talk
This also has audio in and out with separate mic: SD12203T-GN
This has a built in mic, generally the built in mics are very good.
See that here

Purchase here: EmpireTech Andy | IP Cam Talk

 

[looney2ns]

As far as NVR's go, I'd suggest a basic model such as the 16ch version of this one: See it here
You can export videos in mp4 format.
You ask why 16ch when I only need 8? Cheap future proofing if you add more cams later only about $20 difference in price.
You can also access the video via the NVR's web interface.
You would need to also add the appropriate sized WD purple hard drive.
You would also need a POE+ capable network switch.

 

[bp2008]

I'd say that budget is very realistic or even generous if you have the skills and the time to do the work yourself, not hiring someone else.

That second camera which @looney2ns linked (SD12203T-GN) is amazingly compact for a PTZ, and may be ideal for that reason. Most cameras, that one included, are capable of 30 FPS video capture, which is every bit as high as television shows get, so nobody should complain.

Video quality from a surveillance camera isn't going to be as good as from a proper SLR or low-budget cinema camera, but likely a lot better in all ways than what you have now. Especially if you max out the quality and bit rate.

Audio quality is not fantastic, not necessarily better than a USB webcam, but probably more sensitive. Notably, video calls tend to be compressed to hell and full of echo, and influenced by an automatic volume-changing algorithm, so that might leave a bad impression. You can add an external mic if you feel like trying to improve it. Part of the problem is the microphones are cheap and tuned for extreme sensitivity, so they will pick up noise like wind, rain, the ventilation system; things you wouldn't normally expect to have in a recording if you watch a lot of TV and movies where the audio is carefully controlled and produced by professionals.

Capturing audio separately from the video is a trick. Surveillance software typically doesn't typically do that, although if you needed to extract an audio stream from a video stream, plenty of software out there can separate the streams after the recording is done.

I do recommend Blue Iris, if only because I am extremely familiar with the software and I know how flexible it is. While you can use Blue Iris as a sort of frontend to an NVR, the NVR won't be providing anything to Blue Iris that the cameras would not provide on their own. Blue Iris can not, for example, be used to view video clips that exist on the NVR.

Also be aware of the security issues you will introduce by bringing such technology into a medical environment. Best not to connect it to the internet, or even to the same network as other important systems, unless you really know what you're doing and how to keep everything else safe from vulnerable devices.

 

[Scoticus]

Thank you both so much for all the great information!

looney2ns
That camera looks perfect for my needs. As for the zoom, it will usually be 0, and the max will only be about 2x, so zoom isn't an issue. Can I get any better quality or price with another camera if zoom isn't an issue? I definetely agree with the 16 channels, I'm sure I'll figure out tons of stuff to plug in there Just wondering, why would a separate POE switch be necessary if the NVR itself supports POE?

I realize these aren't designed for what I want to do, but these systems that fit these specific needs for these specific cases are north of six figures. So I understand I'm going to have to do a significant amount of legwork on my part to make everything fit. That being said, I noticed the Dahua SDK uses C++, which I'm not familiar with. The SDK for Hikvision is C# based. Are there any 16 channel hikvision units that you can recommend? I haven't been able to play with blue iris yet, so I didn't know it doesn't do any type of video playback, so I'm likely going to have to create my own front end, which to be honest, I kind of look forward to.

Also, is there any issue with cross compatibility between the NVR's and the cameras? i.e. could I use the camera you suggested with a hikvision or lorex NVR?

bp2008
Thanks for the heads up about BI not usable for playback. I wasn't kidding when I said I was new to this. You're totally right about the security thing. We've got a number of disconnected ethernet ports all over the area where I'll want to access the NVR, so I'm going to try to get a switch connected to these, and create a completely isolated network. Will there be any issues with an NVR not connected to the outside world?

 

[looney2ns]

Thank you both so much for all the great information!

looney2ns
That camera looks perfect for my needs. As for the zoom, it will usually be 0, and the max will only be about 2x, so zoom isn't an issue. Can I get any better quality or price with another camera if zoom isn't an issue? I definetely agree with the 16 channels, I'm sure I'll figure out tons of stuff to plug in there Just wondering, why would a separate POE switch be necessary if the NVR itself supports POE?

I realize these aren't designed for what I want to do, but these systems that fit these specific needs for these specific cases are north of six figures. So I understand I'm going to have to do a significant amount of legwork on my part to make everything fit. That being said, I noticed the Dahua SDK uses C++, which I'm not familiar with. The SDK for Hikvision is C# based. Are there any 16 channel hikvision units that you can recommend? I haven't been able to play with blue iris yet, so I didn't know it doesn't do any type of video playback, so I'm likely going to have to create my own front end, which to be honest, I kind of look forward to.

Also, is there any issue with cross compatibility between the NVR's and the cameras? i.e. could I use the camera you suggested with a hikvision or lorex NVR?

bp2008
Thanks for the heads up about BI not usable for playback. I wasn't kidding when I said I was new to this. You're totally right about the security thing. We've got a number of disconnected ethernet ports all over the area where I'll want to access the NVR, so I'm going to try to get a switch connected to these, and create a completely isolated network. Will there be any issues with an NVR not connected to the outside world?

I think you mis-understood. Blue Iris can't play back the files that would be stored on an NVR. Blue Iris CAN playback files that are stored on a hard drive that is in a dedicated machine that is running Blue Iris. If you are using Blue Iris, you have NO need for a separate NVR. See this: Blue Iris - Video Security Software

If you only need 2x, then the SD12203T-GN would suit your purpose. it has a built in mic or you can add an auxiliary mic.
Here is a review I did of it's sibling: Review-Dahua SD1A203T-GN Starlight Mini PTZ

 

[bp2008]

Will there be any issues with an NVR not connected to the outside world?

No. They don't require an internet connection. Blue Iris even has an offline activation procedure that you can use to activate it without ever having an internet connection on the machine you installed it on.

I suggest you buy one camera and run the Blue Iris trial version to really get a better feel for how all this stuff works.

I do not think you will need to write your own front-end.