OMG I'm in over my head

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Ok so I'm trying to design a good surveillance system, for the new house we moved into (new to us, it was built in the late 80's). I've had a bunch of ethernet runs done (back home in Canada I would've done this myself but basements aren't a thing here in Central Florida so spent a bunch of $$ to have it done). I have an equipment rack in my server closet and a POE switch.

I have 2x runs in the back, 1 at the side, 2x at the far corner of the garage, 2x at the end of the front porch, 1x doorbell level, and 2x runs inside, 1 facing the front door, and 1 facing the back sliding glass doors.

I'll be running these all to a dedicated machine (have played with Shinobi but seems like Blue Iris is the way to go, and that's ok).

But I'm lost on what to get for camera hardware. I've read the wiki and cliff notes, and a bunch of the linked articles comparing camera models. I feel like I'm more lost now than I was when I started haha.

Can anyone help suggest what cameras to buy? Interested in basic surveillance of the property from each of the above locations, it's about 2700 sq ft in a quiet neighborhood in a big city in Central Florida. So it gets hot quite a bit but never cold like Canada. Both daytime and nighttime results but I don't want to spend a huge amount on amazing quality. Just the basics.

Any recommendations on models?

What other details can I provide?

Thank you!!
 

sebastiantombs

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I'll contribute a "short" list for you to consider. The key to good day and night performance is sensor size versus resolution. There is a "sweet spot" when resolution and sensor size work well in both. The current 4MP "king of the hill" is the 5442 series as @Holbs said. If you want to save a few bucks and still have audio capability, built in microphone, the 3241 is an excellent choice, again, because of that "sweet spot" in the 2MP resolution category. If you don't need audio, the 2231 is also in that same "sweet spot" at 2MP but has no audio capability.

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

3241T-ZAS Review

Less expensive models -
 
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Excellent, thank you both @Holbs and @sebastiontombs, appreciate it!

I don't think I care about audio, and I'm up for saving a few bucks, the cabling, alarm system, irrigation, thermostats, light switches are all adding up...

What about those "double camera" models I've seen? Are they worth it or just a novelty? I have 3 spots outside and one inside where I'm going to mount two cameras. I've already run 2x ethernet cables to each of those spots so saving on cables isn't really an issue but saving on $$ (if they are indeed cheaper than 2 separate units) and saving on space would be attractive. Worth it?
 

wittaj

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Right now the two lens cameras are not really intended for the home setting - more industrial, business, airport, etc. Doesn't mean you cannot use one, but you will pay more for that one camera than you would two cameras. They do make a two lens camera that has an overview and another zoomed in and/or PTZ, but again they are a lot more than two of the 5442 series cameras. For $1,400 you can get this bad boy (or spend about $400 total for two really good 4MP cams on the 1/1.8" sensor):

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-SDT5X405-4F-WA-Starlight-Technology-Support/dp/B082XQ3XSW/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=hunter&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1618111584&s=merchant-items&sr=1-1

An overview cam is intended to give you a wide angle, big picture view. It is not used for identification purposes (because a wide angle lens like a 2.8mm will not be able to IDENTIFY someone at 50 feet out), but it lets you observe something happened. Or you use it as a spotter cam for a PTZ camera. For example, a 2.8MM lens for an overview cam placed on a 2nd story soffit will not be able to IDENTIFY anything because it would be more than 10 feet away just vertically, much less horizontally, so a 2MP would need less light and thus would be able to see further out that something happened than a 4K camera on the same sensor. And many 4K cameras are placed on the same sensor as a 2MP camera in an effort to save costs...and that savings results in poor night performance. But this overview cam is usually left in color, so you can get clothing or car color to go along with an optically zoomed in camera that may be running B/W.
 
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wittaj

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It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP...this is even more critical with a PTZ that will be PTZing across a wide range of differing light conditions at night. 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

Next you need to worry about getting the right camera for the right location.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most).

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that is popular, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

1604638118196.png



My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back. Reolinks are even worse at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him. And my neighbor with his 4K Costco kit is as well LOL.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the 5442 camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor works as well.
  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

Regarding your hardware for Blue Iris, it is cheaper to buy a refurbished computer. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that. A member here just last week found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive.

I encourage you reach out to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY as he has an Amazon site to get your gear.

The best advice we give is purchase one varifocal camera and test it at each location you want to install a camera and confirm the lens you need and do not install higher than 7-8 feet unless it is for an overview camera - otherwise you get top of heads and hoodies.
 

The Automation Guy

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My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.
Reminds me of a guy who posted on our neighborhood Facebook page wanting to ID a perp trying to get into his truck. The perp had the typical motion blurring and ghosting from an improper setup (although it wasn't as bad as some examples I've seen). The guy actually said something to the effect of "I can get a better picture if needed because my cameras are all 4k!" (Facebook wasn't allowing him to upload the full 4k resolution image). I posted something to the effect of "a 4k picture of a blurry subject is still going to be blurry". That's when things went downhill fast. The guy couldn't grasp what I was saying. To make matter worse, THE GUY INSTALLS CCTV SYSTEMS FOR A LIVING! I cannot make this up!
 

Wildcat_1

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Ok so I'm trying to design a good surveillance system, for the new house we moved into (new to us, it was built in the late 80's). I've had a bunch of ethernet runs done (back home in Canada I would've done this myself but basements aren't a thing here in Central Florida so spent a bunch of $$ to have it done). I have an equipment rack in my server closet and a POE switch.

I have 2x runs in the back, 1 at the side, 2x at the far corner of the garage, 2x at the end of the front porch, 1x doorbell level, and 2x runs inside, 1 facing the front door, and 1 facing the back sliding glass doors.

I'll be running these all to a dedicated machine (have played with Shinobi but seems like Blue Iris is the way to go, and that's ok).

But I'm lost on what to get for camera hardware. I've read the wiki and cliff notes, and a bunch of the linked articles comparing camera models. I feel like I'm more lost now than I was when I started haha.

Can anyone help suggest what cameras to buy? Interested in basic surveillance of the property from each of the above locations, it's about 2700 sq ft in a quiet neighborhood in a big city in Central Florida. So it gets hot quite a bit but never cold like Canada. Both daytime and nighttime results but I don't want to spend a huge amount on amazing quality. Just the basics.

Any recommendations on models?

What other details can I provide?

Thank you!!
Don’t worry, take a breath and know we’re here to help. Take a look at the reviews and tips some of us have posted and reach out with any questions or assistance needed.

You’re in good hands here
 
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Thanks all - about to reach out to @EMPIRETECANDY and pull the trigger. I read through pages and pages of reviews, to keep it simple I'll just go with what seems to be the gold standard, Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret.

Just trying to decide if I should start with 1 or 4 to try them out, then get the rest. Or maybe just dive in site-unseen and get all 9. I understand there's a strategy of getting 1 varifocal, figure out the fixed-lens sizes and save a few $$ that way. Is it worth it? I'm afraid I don't know enough about camera lenses to judge this up front and whether I would just end up getting 9 units of the varifocal model anyway. Not to mention saving time which is kind of a big deal.

For the two that will be indoors - is that model overkill? Is there a different model I should consider?
 

looney2ns

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Thanks @looney2ns. The indoor cameras, one will be facing the front door, and one facing the sliding glass doors that go out to the back. They're going to be mounted pretty much beside each other, but facing opposite ways. I don't really need to see most of the room, it's all about people entering and possible interactions with people answering the door. Possibly later for inside motion detection but that's just an idea at this point and not really a consideration for model selection.
 

The Automation Guy

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I have a couple of suggestions.

One - go to IPVM Camera Calculator V3 and change the address to your location. You can then overlay up to four cameras (the 5442 series camera are all in the data base) at a time on the overhead view. It really helps determine which camera/focal length might work best in your scenario. Pay close attention to the PPF number. This represents the ability to adequately identify a stranger. The farther you are away from the camera, the smaller this number gets. You want to stay above 50 for any shot at identification (but higher numbers are always better). Also, be sure to turn the "Blind Spot" on and set the proper mounting height and view height to get an accurate idea of how much the camera won't cover close to the mounting location.

Two - Andy's prices will be going up soon because the manufactures have increased prices due to "covid" related shortages and increased prices in components. Currently Andy is still selling at the old prices until he runs through his current stock. He said it would likely be a 10-15% increase in price. You should probably ask him directly about this when you talk to him about pricing. It might make your decision on how many cameras to buy a little easier or harder!

Three - if the fixed lens works in your situation, it is generally a better choice than a variable. It's not only that the fixed cameras are less expensive, but the image quality is slightly better on the fixed cameras because there are fewer lenses (the zoom mechanism takes more lenses to accomplish). This results in a cleaner image. It's hardly noticeable, but it is a good reason to use fixed when it is appropriate.
 
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And just a mental note... one that I hope is to be added to the IPCT installation must-read Da IP Camera Bible :
I have moved my entire number of cameras 3x's from one position to another, lower or higher, different angle, newer model (yay..AI!), different reasons. I initially bought all 4 x fixed 2.8mm focal length cameras and 4 x varifocials. and then more fixed After a year of finding pro's / con's of cameras and ever changing house events & landscape adds & edits, I sorely wish all my cameras were varifocals other than dedicated for singular purposes such as my 5442-Z4E that watches only the driveway entrance.
Yes, the varifocals cost a couple bucks more... but they are future proof.
OOPs. Of course...the Z4E is varifocal as well but hay...you get the idea! One day, I may re-position it or different angle and need a larger FOV that only a varifocal will do
 

mat200

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And just a mental note... one that I hope is to be added to the IPCT installation must-read Da IP Camera Bible :
I have moved my entire number of cameras 3x's from one position to another, lower or higher, different angle, newer model (yay..AI!), different reasons. I initially bought all 4 x fixed 2.8mm focal length cameras and 4 x varifocials. and then more fixed After a year of finding pro's / con's of cameras and ever changing house events & landscape adds & edits, I sorely wish all my cameras were varifocals other than dedicated for singular purposes such as my 5442-Z4E that watches only the driveway entrance.
Yes, the varifocals cost a couple bucks more... but they are future proof.
OOPs. Of course...the Z4E is varifocal as well but hay...you get the idea! One day, I may re-position it or different angle and need a larger FOV that only a varifocal will do
Hi Holbs,

Feel free to find a place to for that update in the cliff notes, submit a modification and let's see if we can get that edit in.

note - it's been awhile since I worked on the cliff notes, so I'm not current with the ability to edit it, but it would be nice to see it updated.
 
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And just a mental note... one that I hope is to be added to the IPCT installation must-read Da IP Camera Bible :
I have moved my entire number of cameras 3x's from one position to another, lower or higher, different angle, newer model (yay..AI!), different reasons. I initially bought all 4 x fixed 2.8mm focal length cameras and 4 x varifocials. and then more fixed After a year of finding pro's / con's of cameras and ever changing house events & landscape adds & edits, I sorely wish all my cameras were varifocals other than dedicated for singular purposes such as my 5442-Z4E that watches only the driveway entrance.
Yes, the varifocals cost a couple bucks more... but they are future proof.
OOPs. Of course...the Z4E is varifocal as well but hay...you get the idea! One day, I may re-position it or different angle and need a larger FOV that only a varifocal will do
I agree with this wholeheartedly! While the quality difference is something I considered, the fact that it's a minor difference (very slightly better for fixed) as well as slightly cheaper (again for fixed), I was already leaning towards just getting all varifocals, at least for the outside positions, for the exact same reason you described. I fully expect that these bad boys are going to get a lot of adjustments, and I'd rather have gear that is more adjustable and future proof.

Having that concept in the cliff notes is a bang-on idea, had it been there already I would have saved my poor brain from trying to arrive at that conclusion separately.
 

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Thanks @looney2ns. The indoor cameras, one will be facing the front door, and one facing the sliding glass doors that go out to the back. They're going to be mounted pretty much beside each other, but facing opposite ways. I don't really need to see most of the room, it's all about people entering and possible interactions with people answering the door. Possibly later for inside motion detection but that's just an idea at this point and not really a consideration for model selection.
You need to take into consideration the distance to those two doors, it's about getting a face ID, so if you put up a 3.6mm lens looking at a door 20 feet away, it will be hard to ID someone at the door. You will also have the consideration of someone standing at the door, and being back lit in the daytime. You will need to adjust the settings on the cam to counter that or the face will be too dark to see.

Instead a lot of us like to put the mini wedge that I linked outside, next to the door at a height of 5ft. Using a 2.8.mm lens, you get a good view of someone at the door.
 
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