Please help me with security system for an optical shop

[ilan1h2020]

Hi everyone,
I have been looking at 4 camera systems for my optical shop. Cost is no object ie: I am willing to pay for the very best and reliable equipment. The ceiling is a standard office-type drop ceiling with tiles (probably very easy to cable). I intend to be there for about 5 more years and want something that will last that long (with no need to "upgrade"). There is no existing system now. Obviously IP cameras/POE are the future. However, I have a very poor DSL upload speed from my internet provider (700kb-1MB) with no ability to upgrade this. I do not want to install anything that wouldn't work well with that limitation. My understanding is that IP camera systems are more demanding of bandwidth especially during remote viewing (which I want to do). My security cameras are way less important than the other online stuff we have to do in the office and I don't want to compromise our other work. Second point: as a non-techie kind of person I detest tinkering with static IP's, DNS pointing, network issues etc. I realize that my system will be installed by a professional but it still seems that all of this networking stuff is more prone to confusion and headaches than simply running some cables from 4 cameras to a DVR. I think that the 2.4MP 1080p images from a tvi system is probably more than enough for my needs and it seems simple enough. Any opinions on this?

 

[fenderman]

Hi everyone,
I have been looking at 4 camera systems for my optical shop. Cost is no object ie: I am willing to pay for the very best and reliable equipment. The ceiling is a standard office-type drop ceiling with tiles (probably very easy to cable). I intend to be there for about 5 more years and want something that will last that long (with no need to "upgrade"). There is no existing system now. Obviously IP cameras/POE are the future. However, I have a very poor DSL upload speed from my internet provider (700kb-1MB) with no ability to upgrade this. I do not want to install anything that wouldn't work well with that limitation. My understanding is that IP camera systems are more demanding of bandwidth especially during remote viewing (which I want to do). My security cameras are way less important than the other online stuff we have to do in the office and I don't want to compromise our other work. Second point: as a non-techie kind of person I detest tinkering with static IP's, DNS pointing, network issues etc. I realize that my system will be installed by a professional but it still seems that all of this networking stuff is more prone to confusion and headaches than simply running some cables from 4 cameras to a DVR. I think that the 2.4MP 1080p images from a tvi system is probably more than enough for my needs and it seems simple enough. Any opinions on this?

Welcome to the forum. Lets clear up some common misconceptions. IP systems do not use any more internet bandwidth than analog or hd over coax (cvi, tvi etc). If you homerun your cameras to the NVR, there is no more work required than a tvi system, the IP system is independent of your network until you remote view just like tvi. If installing new, go ip. Look at the 2mp or 4mp hikvisions. Buy from a US seller selling US region cameras. READ the threads on this subject.
You dont need a static external ip address, you will use a dynamic dns service. This is still required with a TVI system. T

 

[ilan1h2020]

Fenderman,
Thank you for your prompt response and your help. I have done extensive reading on this subject and have emerged more confused than ever. Many on this forum state that bandwidth is a non-issue but I have found an equal number of sites that list it as the #1 downside to IP cameras. For example, here is a direct quote from another site:

Finally, bandwidth on the local area network (LAN) needs to be considered. Video uses a lot of bandwidth. The bandwidth used by each camera varies by many factors including the resolution, the compression method, and even the amount of movement in the field-of-view.
Analog camera systems transmit over coax, not the LAN, so their bandwidth is not much of an issue. The only use of the LAN in analog systems is for the DVR to broadcast video data over the network to local desktop users or to the internet. DVRs tend to broadcast video very efficiently and will only use bandwidth if people are currently viewing the cameras.
]In IP camera systems on the other hand, each IP camera uses the LAN to broadcast their signal to the NVR so bandwidth can be a big issue. As a general rule, an IP camera using full CIF (352 x 288) resolution, 30 frames per second (30 fps), and MPEG4 compression will require about 720K bits per second (720Kbps). Therefore, if we put 100 IP cameras running CIF on a network, we would use about 72Mbps of bandwidth. This number will double if audio is also transmitted. However, to make bandwidth matters worse for IP - most of the newest IP cameras are coming out with 'megapixel' resolution. This is wonderful from the standpoint of how much clarity and field-of-view can be captured, but it comes at a huge price to bandwidth. A single 2-megapixel IP camera, running 30 fps with MPEG4 compression will use a whopping 6.5Mbps of bandwidth. It should come as no surprise then that some companies have gone so far as to create an entirely separate IP network just to run their camera system.

 

[fenderman]

@ilan1h2020 That website is completely misleading and I would not trust it for any information. Its really upsetting to see a website post this false info. Who are you going to trust, a website that is likely trying to sell you some equipment or a user forum with installers and advanced users.
When you HOMERUN the cameras to the NVR - meaning you run the cable direct to the NVR, OR you use switches directly connected to the NVR, there is ZERO data transmitted over the network. This is a fact, despite what some website states.
Also note that even if you transmitted over the network, that info is completely outdated (cif ip cameras, that is 10 years old. Mpeg4 same thing). Modern cameras use h.264 compression not mpeg4. It would take way more cameras than the 4 you would need in your shop to put a dent in a 10/100 network let alone a gigabit network. You can EASILY run 4 cameras on a 10/100 network and not feel any speed decrease. Again, this is not even relevant if you homerun the cameras to the NVR. I cannot stress this enough, ZERO data passes though the network when the cameras are homerun to the NVR. Any website stating otherwise is posting false information.

 

[spixel]

Fenderman is right, your upload/download speed from your ISP is completely different than your local network speed. Since your internet is slow, you won't see any impact on a standard 100Mbps network. Remote viewing will use the same amount of bandwidth on a tvi or ip system, assuming you have the cameras set to the same bit rate.

I have some experience with the Hikvision turbo hd tvi system. The basic DVRs take an additional 2 IP cameras, assuming you don't get the absolute cheapest recorder. The 7204hqhi can take 4 tvi + 2 ip for 6 total. You can also disable some analog channels to add more IP if needed. Image quality is pretty good, daytime is a bit worse than what you'd get from a decent 2mp ip camera but night image will likely be superior.

It's definitely very easy to setup and use, and generally much cheaper than IP. But since you said money isn't an object, I'd be leaning towards IP. Just make sure you're satisfied with night image quality of the cameras you choose if its important.

 

[tomw]

Short Answer : What they said. Get 4MP+ IP cams and a NVR. Be happy

Long Answer: See short answer

Longer Answer:
By directly connecting the cams to the NVR you avoid any potential LAN bandwidth issues.

However, even if you ran it on the same lan, it is very very very unlikely to have any impact on your internet related activities.

The IP cams run on a LAN (Local Area Network). As the name suggests, it is Local. It is separate from the internet. Your cams are not connected to the internet. No traffic from the cams will go to the internet.

Your LAN runs fast, ~1Gbps (or ~115MB/s). Cams run at 6-10MB/s. So you can fit 10+ 4MP cams your lan with LAn bandwidth to spare.

The LAN is connected to the internet via a router. The router manages what traffic goes to the internet (your cam traffic does not). Your internet upload connection of 1MB is unrelated to the CAM network usage. You will not access the cams directly. You access the images via the NVR. The NVR will downsample to fit your internet connection speed.

So, you see even if you did use a LAN, your internet related work will not be impacted.

 

[zero-degrees]

@ilan1h2020 i cannot stress this enough, zero data passes though the network when the cameras are homerun to the nvr. Any website stating otherwise is posting false information.

^^^^^^^ that!!!!!!!

Also since you are installing new do not go with TVI. While the "quality" can be comparable TVI was created as a crossover technology for people who have older analog cable that can not be replaced or is just to difficult or costly to replace. Because it is a cross over the market can be limited which means as time goes on your options will be very limited should you want to replace or expand - you already see some sellers cleaning out TVI inventory, so while you can find some great deals just understand you are not buying the latest technology.

this is a new install with drop ceilings - pull cat5e to each camera location back to a central point where the NVR will be, then install 4mp cameras.

welcome and good luck!

 

[ilan1h2020]

Thanks to all. It seems very clear from this forum that the vast majority of people would go with the IP system. Final point: if I don't care at all about scalability, future-proofing etc...and I am perfectly happy with 2.1MP resolution; is a TVI system easier to manage than an IP system? Everyone says that it requires more technical know-how to set up, so I can assume it's more complicated? I'm a very busy 55 year old professional with a large family and very limited time for troubleshooting issues. I want a "set it and forget it" type of system or at least something that my limited tech brain can troubleshoot. I don't really understand networking, routers, modems, gateways, bridges, DNS, IP's etc etc (and I don't want to). I would be interested in finding out whether or not one system was much easier or more difficult than another to maintain?

 

[fenderman]

If you homerun the wires to the nvr it is no more difficult than tvi.. You still need to setup both for remote access!

 

[tomw]

You donot need to understand internal cmbustion engines to drive a car.

Once the guys set it up for you, you'll never know the difference between the two systems. There is no need to know all that networking stuff to use it.

 

[ilan1h2020]

Thank you so much. I will go ahead with an IP installation. I was wondering if it would be better to buy my own system and then find an installer; or to let the installer buy the equipment? I just got a quote from an installer for $1200 labor to install a 4 dome IP camera system in a drop ceiling. I have no problem with his labor charges. However, I also noted that his "costs" were higher than what I've read on this site. For example, $250 per hikvision dome; $1100 for NVR. His overall quote was about $3400. I don't mind paying well for professional work but isn't there a risk here that he may not be buying the very best stuff? I would prefer to personally purchase top of the line stuff, and then pay the installer seperately. Does that make sense or would I be complicating things?

 

[fenderman]

Thank you so much. I will go ahead with an IP installation. I was wondering if it would be better to buy my own system and then find an installer; or to let the installer buy the equipment? I just got a quote from an installer for $1200 labor to install a 4 dome IP camera system in a drop ceiling. I have no problem with his labor charges. However, I also noted that his "costs" were higher than what I've read on this site. For example, $250 per hikvision dome; $1100 for NVR. His overall quote was about $3400. I don't mind paying well for professional work but isn't there a risk here that he may not be buying the very best stuff? I would prefer to personally purchase top of the line stuff, and then pay the installer seperately. Does that make sense or would I be complicating things?

That will complicate things if there is ever a problem he will blame it on the gear. if you have someone install it and are expecting a warranty and follow-up service then you have to let him buy the gear. marking up parts is standard practice and almost every service industry. $3,400 is a high quote for a 4 camera system unless he is using expensive cameras or the wiring runs are particularly difficult.

 

[NIPSZX]

What does homerun the wires mean exactly? What does homerunning the wires entail? Is Homerun a verb? I am a newbie. Or is it a Homerun HD device? Thanks so much

 

[hiky]

Create your own specification from reading what the guys say above and then get quotes, you need to specify the 4 cameras + NVR, as you say cost is no object so give him something to work on, not happy with his quote on your specification, get another
basically
4 x 4mega pixel Ip cameras
NVR with POE and 8 inputs for future proofing
and a decent warranty, usually parts get 2 years and labour is yearly contract

from that basic spec any installer that can handle Ip cams should give you a decent price

 

[spixel]

$1100 for an NVR? It must be one of the complicated ones, which is something you definitely don't want. Nothing wrong with the much simpler ~$300 ones. Yes, $250 per camera is expensive. At that price, it's too low to be one of Hikvisions higher end cameras. But their standard range, even at their western prices from a US supplier, are not much over $150. That's labor cost also seems very expensive.

 

[zero-degrees]

$1100 for an NVR? It must be one of the complicated ones, which is something you definitely don't want. Nothing wrong with the much simpler ~$300 ones. Yes, $250 per camera is expensive. At that price, it's too low to be one of Hikvisions higher end cameras. But their standard range, even at their western prices from a US supplier, are not much over $150. That's labor cost also seems very expensive.

This isn't fair to say - Yes the NVR seems excessive but he got a quote from someone with a business and over head. Citing $300 for a NVR isn't fair, thats what you buy it for and you don't have employees, a building, insurance, vehicles etc. Standard practice for a business is 40-60% margins on hardware in this industry which means you need to double pricing - so the $250 per camera is about right when he is buying the cameras for $125ish. The NVR might be a $300 NVR but you don't know what HD's he's including and if he's trying to cover other costs for the project here as well. Bottom line, without knowing the building, the scope of work, etc its hard to judge a quote. However, I agree with fender this quote seems high. 4 Cam install for mid range IP cameras should be around $200 - $250 per camera, a 4 channel POE NVR WITH 4 TB HD should be around $500 - $750, then install/labor charges could be anything depending on the work involved with the install, the amount of cable needed, etc, etc...

Bottom line - careful saying things are "complicated" based on price or saying labor cost is "excessive" when you don't know this project. This individual is a novice and came here looking for advice, your comments are not advice/helpful for someone looking for professional labor/install, your comments are of a DIY'er which this individual is not.

 

[spixel]

This isn't fair to say - Yes the NVR seems excessive but he got a quote from someone with a business and over head. Citing $300 for a NVR isn't fair, thats what you buy it for and you don't have employees, a building, insurance, vehicles etc. Standard practice for a business is 40-60% margins on hardware in this industry which means you need to double pricing - so the $250 per camera is about right when he is buying the cameras for $125ish. The NVR might be a $300 NVR but you don't know what HD's he's including and if he's trying to cover other costs for the project here as well. Bottom line, without knowing the building, the scope of work, etc its hard to judge a quote. However, I agree with fender this quote seems high. 4 Cam install for mid range IP cameras should be around $200 - $250 per camera, a 4 channel POE NVR WITH 4 TB HD should be around $500 - $750, then install/labor charges could be anything depending on the work involved with the install, the amount of cable needed, etc, etc...

Bottom line - careful saying things are "complicated" based on price or saying labor cost is "excessive" when you don't know this project. This individual is a novice and came here looking for advice, your comments are not advice/helpful for someone looking for professional labor/install, your comments are of a DIY'er which this individual is not.

I would have thought the margins on the hardware were included in that $1300 labor cost. I know enough about professional installations to know that's practically double what it should be for a non-warehouse 4 camera installation. You'll always get people who charge more because they think the customer can afford more, but I'd imagine there's plenty of other professional registered installers who would be happy to do it for much less. Yes, I'm making assumptions about the building but I doubt its out of the ordinary.

 

[zero-degrees]

I would have thought the margins on the hardware were included in that $1300 labor cost. I know enough about professional installations to know that's practically double what it should be for a non-warehouse 4 camera installation. You'll always get people who charge more because they think the customer can afford more, but I'd imagine there's plenty of other professional registered installers who would be happy to do it for much less. Yes, I'm making assumptions about the building but I doubt its out of the ordinary.

If you thought hardware markup was included in the "labor cost" you don't know that much about professional installs. Labor cost is the employee or employees time spent on site. It also is most likely all the needed "extras". Cable, connectors, mounts, drill bits, etc. I'm not going to go back and forth as to whats "high or low" for the cost of the project. My only point was you telling someone $1,100 means its to complicated of hardware to use, and that $250 is "expensive" for a camera isn't fair for a professional job... Also saying a 4 camera job should be $1,500 - $1,700 is really inaccurate (You said it should be half "Practically double")
Lets assume USA HIK/Private Label Hardware

8 Channel POE NVR (Future Proof): $250
4.1 MP Domes: 150 x 4
4 TB Purple Drive: $150

Rough Cost on Hardware alone is $1,000

Cat5e cable - Lets say 500' (Half Box) - $50
Connectors: $4
Drill bit for metal or block to go from comm room or through fire breaks: $20
Zip Ties: $5
Misc: $25

Lets round down and call it $100

Now we are at $1,100 in COST.

Now one employee has to work 8 hours possibly a little less or a little more to wire, configure, setup the system and train the end user.
Lets assume this employee costs $50 an hour (Includes his hourly wage, insurance, workers comp, unemployment, etc) This is a LOW cost depending on where you are in the US.

So that's another $400

You are now at $1,500 COST on the job, not including the thousands in tools that are in the installers truck, the truck itself, the business building possibly, other overhead, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I am trying to paint a clear picture that if you did this job simply for $1,600 like you "think" its worth you wouldn't be in business long. Again, some line items may be excessive, but thats why you get mult quotes. Again, he came here looking for advice and your first response was its complicated because its expensive - so stay away and that's over priced - Those are the two points I was pointing out were not fair or accurate. Your next statement led to break out these details.

 

[spixel]

Are you saying it's typical to expect to be charged ~$1500 on a ~$1500 job to cover the installers own expenses? Because it's either that, or the NVR actually is complicated

 

[ilan1h2020]

This individual never actually saw my office. He was simply told that it's a small office with drop ceilings and 4 cameras clustered around a small area. Based on a simple google/amazon search I now realize that his material costs are $1200 at the very most. Therefore, he is charging roughly $2000 for labor ($3200 total). That seems rather hefty to me. The only reason why I got a quote for an IP system is that people on this forum were very pro IP. However, I also have a quote for a 2MP TVI system which is $850 for all parts and labor (hikvision equipment). In that case, I know that their material costs are about $400 and their labor is $450. For my limited needs this seems more than enough.