POE IP Security Cameras - Top 5 Brands

[Mandarin_Frog]

Hi all,

I am new to the IPCT forum and I am looking for some very high level input. I am planning to upgrade an existing outdoor IP Security Camera and add a few additional ones. The new cameras should be good quality and perform very well with regards to Person & Vehicle Detection (i.e., some advanced motion detection features, line crossing, etc.). What five brands best meet these performance criteria? Please note that I am intentionally sharing a limited amount of information here so that I don't accidentally cause a bias to any particular brand. Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Mandarin_Frog

 

[wittaj]

What about night time performance with motion to capture clean images or is person and vehicle detection all that is important? Cloud based or completely off the grid?

These determine the choices...as well as a few other key parameters...

 

[Mike A.]

Dahua, Hikvision, Axis, Avigilon, Sony/Panasonic/Canon/Hanwah(Samsung)/Bosch/etc.

Something like that and not necessarily in that order depending on what/price/application/other considerations.

 

[Flintstone61]

To Dream the impossible Dream,
To Light the unbeatable dark....
To detect the undetectable assholes.
And to Line cross, where the brave dare not go!
To wire the unwireable Camera!
This is my Quest!

 

[dudemaar]

Poet and don’t know it.

 

[sebastiantombs]

His feet show it. They're Longfellows!

 

[Flintstone61]

Thats a lot of free advice your looking for. The experienced people may not respond. Just buy some cameras and put them up. then give us your findings.

 

[Mandarin_Frog]

Good motion detection at night with clean images would be important as well.

I guess the main point of my question was to try to identify the brands that are the key technology leaders. Based on my research from a few years ago, Hikvision and Dahua seemed to be highly regarded. I now see that many of their cameras are unavailable due to the NDAA import ban, so I am hesitant to consider those brands and I am curious as to what other brands compete at the same performance level.

Choosing the right camera can be a bit overwhelming without some process, any suggestions? I now have a 16 channel Laview NVR (Hikvision?) with 8 POE cameras (with very basic frame to frame motion detection, nice cameras but easily triggered so as to make P2P email alerts useless). Getting cameras that are compatible with the NVR would be nice, although I am planning to add a QNAP NAS (Including QVR PRO) to my network soon and I would like to try out Blue IRIS someday.

What process should a newbie use to select the best camera for a given application? My approach in the past was to choose a single brand and then study their product line, make a selection, then go to another brand, make another selection, etc. until I had a few choices. Then I would compare the surviving choices and make a purchase. (That's why I asked the original question.)

Your feedback has already helped a little, as I have never heard of some of the brands Mike listed above.

Thanks,

Mandarin_Frog

 

[SouthernYankee]

test do not guess
start with one good quality (Dahua, Hikvision) variable focus camera. Test at night with motion, have the "bad Guy" wear a hoodie. can you ID them, will it allow the cops to catch the them, will the video stand up in court, If not you have wasted your money.

=========================
My standard welcome to the forum message.

Read Study Plan before spending money
Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.


Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with a good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use WIFI cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo, Vivint cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size the bigger number the more range the less FOV. . Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do, you will turn it into a brick !!

Cameras to look at
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED . Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+) - 4MP starlight
.................... Dahua IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED review
IPC-T5442TM-AS ..... Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+
IPC-HDW5442t-ZE .... Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing -- variable focus 2.7 mm-12mm 4 MP Starlight
IPC-B5442E-ZE ...... Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+ -- variable 2.7mm-12mm bullet
IPC-B5442E-Z4E .... bullet 8mm-32mm variable focus zoom 4MP
IPC-HFW7442H-Z ..... Review - Dahua IPC-HFW7442H-Z 4MP Ultra AI Varifocal Bullet Camera -- 4 MP variable focus AI
IPC-T2347G-LU ...... Review of the Hikvision OEM model IPC-T2347G-LU 'ColorVu' IP CCTV camera. (DS-2CD2347G1-LU)
IPC-HDW2231R-ZS .... Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal

 

[wittaj]

Somehow I knew that is where you were going with that....and might even be a former member asking it as a new member...

EVERY camera has security issues. It is why most of us here isolate cameras from the internet. If you don't use P2P and UPnP, no reason for the cameras need to install any other programs on your system. My Dahua's have not installed any other programs to work and I completely set them up on a computer that does not have internet access before I install them on my system. They do not phone home.

Hacking vulnerabilities are the same regardless of who makes the cameras...or any IoT for that matter...and that is why most of us here isolate our cameras from the internet...it's just irony that they are surveillance cameras...it flows better saying security cameras are not very secure but many here do not consider them security cameras as they are for surveillance!

And our wonderful government decided to "ban" Hikvision and Dahua from government installations due to being partly owned by the Chinese government and the potential to be hacked...yet fail to recognize the real problem are the cameras can be breached and then they get exploited with other manufacturer cameras because they failed to isolate them from the internet. End result is people/governments that shouldn't see the camera feeds are now seeing them...

Keep in mind this proposed ban is for government installations....not your home, private business, etc...and even at that the ban is just words at this point with no official document for agencies to go upon. The bill requires new rules for FCC approval and authorizations be established. Those new rules must be published before 11/22 - a lot can happen between now and then...

Yep, instead of our government forbidding public agencies from using Chinese brand cameras like Dahua and Hikvision because they could be used to be spied on by the Chinese government, they should have been looking at what the real issue is, and it is this issue that will be same regardless of who makes a camera. You need to get the cameras off the internet period.

We have already seen countless examples where governments facilities that installed expensive AXIS cameras that are NDAA compliant were hacked into...

And of course other camera companies are now going to try to use this ban to their advantage, but as a consumer, you need to decide what marketing nonsense to believe and which one to pass on.

Regardless of who makes the camera, it should be limited in its ability to reach the internet. So at that point, go with the camera that is going to give you the best chance of a good capture.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Incidentally, those bans apply to Federal Government installations and don't apply anywhere else, like at your home.

Either use a second NIC in the machine that monitors the cameras or use a VLAN to isolate them. That applies to every camera brand because they are all quite weak in the security department.

 

[mat200]

Good motion detection at night with clean images would be important as well.

I guess the main point of my question was to try to identify the brands that are the key technology leaders. Based on my research from a few years ago, Hikvision and Dahua seemed to be highly regarded. I now see that many of their cameras are unavailable due to the NDAA import ban, so I am hesitant to consider those brands and I am curious as to what other brands compete at the same performance level.

Choosing the right camera can be a bit overwhelming without some process, any suggestions? I now have a 16 channel Laview NVR (Hikvision?) with 8 POE cameras (with very basic frame to frame motion detection, nice cameras but easily triggered so as to make P2P email alerts useless). Getting cameras that are compatible with the NVR would be nice, although I am planning to add a QNAP NAS (Including QVR PRO) to my network soon and I would like to try out Blue IRIS someday.

What process should a newbie use to select the best camera for a given application? My approach in the past was to choose a single brand and then study their product line, make a selection, then go to another brand, make another selection, etc. until I had a few choices. Then I would compare the surviving choices and make a purchase. (That's why I asked the original question.)

Your feedback has already helped a little, as I have never heard of some of the brands Mike listed above.

Thanks,

Mandarin_Frog

Hi @Mandarin_Frog

Hikvision and Dahua are dominant brands in the IP PoE / CCTV camera markets and iirc represent #1, and #2 OEMs in terms of size.

Yes, numerous issues if you need to use these at a US Government related facility .. however, most of us here use them in our homes / small business and if we isolate them from internet access they have been good values.

Yes, it would be nice to see more options which are affordable, and there are additional brands that can be considered. ( some vendors are using Uniview now as their OEM .. )

LaView, most of the past LaView IP security camera systems were Hikvision OEM ..

Many of our members have decided to use Blue Iris as the VMS ( NVR replacement ) and mix and match whatever cameras they like that meet ONVIF / RTSP specs well ( Reolink is not liked for numerous reasons )

We have the cliff notes which are a good source to review for concepts that will help those looking to learn more on this topic.
( camera models in the cliff notes are now older models and typically not available as new any more )

 

[Mandarin_Frog]

SouthernYankee,

I will dive into your quick start list to learn as much as I can (looks like a lot of excellent information!). From your feedback, is it fair to say that Hikvision and Dahua are still the technology leaders and the others lag behind, especially in low light conditions? (I know it is not that simple, just trying to generalize.)

Wittaj, your feedback makes sense regarding getting the surveillance systems off the internet. This is something I will need to follow up on (switching to using OpenVPN, upgrading from an unmanaged switch to a managed switch and upgrading to a router that supports VLANs). My main concern with Hikvision and Dahua is whether their cameras are still able to be easily purchased in the US. I see out of stock on a lot of their cameras at B&H Photo. I also see that Laview (Hikvision) stopped selling their POE IP Cameras and now only sell wireless cameras. My understanding is that the FCC will not approve/certify any additional Hikvision/Dahau cameras as of October 2021 (StackPath). Is availability in the US an issue with these two brands? If so, what other brands do well with motion detection in low light conditions? Also what makes you think that I am a former member posing as new member? (I am NOT a former member!)

Thanks for your feedback and time, much appreciated!

Mandarin_Frog

 

[wittaj]

Andy @EMPIRETECANDY is a member here that sells Dahua and Hikvision OEM cameras and NVR via his Amazon and AliExpress store, or you can DM him and purchase directly. You could receive them from him from 1 to 4 days depending on where the camera physically is.

Andy's cameras are Dahua and Hikvision OEM equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech.

Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon and AliExpress store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you by from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon (or AliExpress), they are Andy cams and Dahua or Hikvision OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua and Hikvision authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from an authorized dealer. You select the country at camera initialization.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua and Hikvision website, thus proving they are real Dahua and Hikvision. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provided that to Andy for sale before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

You do have to be careful with some rebranded cameras purchased from other vendors as they are cameras that are for the Chinese region but have been hacked into English but then are not able to be updated or they will brick. Buying from a reputable source is key to make sure that doesn't happen.

In the US, an official Dahua unit can cost 2 to 5 times or more than what we can purchase them for from Andy @EMPIRETECANDY here because the official US distributors want you to go through their professional installers or want you to buy in quantity, so we pay a premium markup. Neither of which most of us here want to do. Maybe some pockets of the US folks can get a good deal from an authorized Dahua dealer in the US, but most of us don't.

In addition, the "American version" Dahua cameras are usually inferior to the international Dahua Cameras that Andy sells. The model lines by Dahua USA are mostly high priced cameras on the wrong MP/sensor ratio.

Further, any issues would have to go through the distributor and Dahua US will not talk to us. And for the few cameras we would be purchasing from a distributor, I doubt the customer service would be very good.

Warranty & RMA

us.dahuasecurity.com

How many people here in the US are saying they are getting great deals on Dahua cameras purchasing from authorized Dahua US dealers here?

How many with official US Dahua cameras are running firmware more recent than what Andy gets for us?

In my experience with electronics, they poop out immediately or within a year. Andy's warranty takes care of that and he showed it with a recent member here that was beyond the warranty period and sent back a camera and Andy sent him a new one not some refurbished unit. Any other product I have ever sent in on warranty, the replacement is a used product. Not with Andy - he sends a brand new unit.

In a rare instance a camera poops out after two years, the initial savings I have from purchasing from Andy can buy me a newer camera and I still come out ahead...

The few times I have had a longer warranty on an electronic, it was a painful process and long and drawn out and then they send you a clearly refurbished product. For warranty, I want either my unit fixed or a brand new unit and not someone elses that broke and they fixed.

Warranty and pricing go hand-in-hand. If I can get a 5 year warranty on anything, but it cost me 5 times as much to purchase that product than it does to go with an OEM that is 1/5 the cost, I will take my chances. If I get 3 years out of it, I am still better off. If I get 5 years, even better. Only after purchasing the 6th item in 5 years do I lose in that scenario.

Your best bet is to buy from Andy here on his Amazon store or directly from him.

 

[Mandarin_Frog]

mat200 & wittaj,

Thank you for the detailed feedback!

My next step is to dive into the rabbit hole and Read Study Plan as SouthernYankee suggested. Perhaps I will come back with more specific questions after digesting the info available.

What a great forum!

Mandarin_Frog

 

[wittaj]

Glad to help! Better to come here now and figure out what you want (even if you get overloaded before figuring it all out), than to buy some cheap consumer big box store stuff and be unsatisfied with their performance.

As you study and get close, it is common practice for a member to toss out an overhead shot of their house with their proposed cameras and locations and let members here offer suggestions. Much better before than after they are installed and find out you put a great camera in the wrong location, resulting in horrible performance.