Starlight vs Night Color

johnstjs

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Hi all

It's been a while since I've been on here, but this place has been an invaluable resource.

Im looking to find the differences between starlight+, Night Color, and Night Color Fusion. Im not talking about the technical differences, I can find them. Real world differences - what has better night vision in different scenarios.

We have cameras at our boat club pointed at our docks. A few if them also cover the waterway in front. We'd like better coverage on the water. Because of the area we need to cover, we can't use a zoom lens. We're hoping to be able to see boat registration numbers set about 150fy so this points tip 8mp cameras. I know that for night vision you can't chase megapixels, but ive got a line on a couple of N85EFN2 cameras. Just curious how these will perform at that distance with ambient moonlight.

Thanks

Jeff
 

wittaj

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The words Accusense, ColorVu, Dark Fighter, Night Color, Fusion, Starliight, Starlight+, etc. are simply marketing terms and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simple a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual sensors and capabilities of the camera is more important.

Any of the cameras marketed as Full Color type cameras need light - if you have no light, then the cameras suck. They do not defy physics - all cameras need light - either white light or infrared. Don't be sold by the still images and marketing terms - I can make a cheap camera look great at night and nice and bright, but then motion is crap. None of these manufacturers tell you the shutter speed used to get that bright image.

If you don't have enough light, it will be blind and you cannot add infrared as the camera won't see it. Or if you can get it in color, then motion is a blur because the shutter has to be set too low in order to see.

Here is link to a thread that shows the disappointment of many thinking a ColorVu camera was magic and could defy physics. Full Color type cameras are great if you have light, but will be horrible if you do not have enough light.




This is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starlight as this camera is marketed as having Starlight.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your stuff? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two visible columns:



1642215852060.png




Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you



You have some learning to do. One camera cannot be the see all, do all. A wide angle is not a good choice to read something 150 yards away.

The camera you are looking at, the N85EFN2 is a great camera, but it will not read registration at 150 yards away at night with just moonlight.

BTW you can get the camera for almost half if you purchase from @EMPIRETECANDY a trusted vendor here with excellent relationships with Dahua - he brought that camera to that market before Dahua even sold it. He sells Dahua OEM and that camera is the 4K/X you can purchase at his Amazon store. I have one and it is a great camera, but like any fixed lens, distance will be an issue.

You need a camera with optical zoom. See this thread I put together that shows the importance of focal length over MP when needing a camera for a specific distance to IDENTIFY:

 
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berto01

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I have a 2 mp PTZ and i dont think i could make that out at 150 yards.
 

mat200

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Hi all

It's been a while since I've been on here, but this place has been an invaluable resource.

Im looking to find the differences between starlight+, Night Color, and Night Color Fusion. Im not talking about the technical differences, I can find them. Real world differences - what has better night vision in different scenarios.

We have cameras at our boat club pointed at our docks. A few if them also cover the waterway in front. We'd like better coverage on the water. Because of the area we need to cover, we can't use a zoom lens. We're hoping to be able to see boat registration numbers set about 150fy so this points tip 8mp cameras. I know that for night vision you can't chase megapixels, but ive got a line on a couple of N85EFN2 cameras. Just curious how these will perform at that distance with ambient moonlight.

Thanks

Jeff

Hi Jeff @johnstjs

A few questions:

1) Because of the area we need to cover, we can't use a zoom lens.

Question: Why can you not use a "zoom lens"? Are you attempting to cover too large of an area with only one camera?


2) We're hoping to be able to see boat registration numbers set about 150fy so this points tip 8mp cameras.

Question: Boat Registration Numbers, are the perpendicular to the camera and what is their size?

Note: see the DORI section. Also, if you want to see this at 150 feet you will probably need a "zoom" lens .. that is certainly not a wide lens like 2.8mm .. even if on a 8MP camera ..


3) Camera considered N85EFN2 8MP Night Color 2.0 Fixed-lens Network Bullet Camera

comments: Camera sensor specs look good. However a 2.8mm lens, thus DORI distances are shorter than you probably want. ( see the DORI section of the cliff notes )

  • 1/1.2-in. 8 MP Progressive-scan CMOS Sensor

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MR2

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Question: Why can you not use a "zoom lens"? Are you attempting to cover too large of an area with only one camera?
That's what I'm hearing... imho one of those tracking PTZ with a mad sensor and mad zoom would be what I'd aim at + a ColourX for area coverage
 

mat200

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That's what I'm hearing... imho one of those tracking PTZ with a mad sensor and mad zoom would be what I'd aim at + a ColourX for area coverage
PTZ alone probably will not get you what you want ..

Use the DORI section of the cliff notes to get an idea of what you want.

Basically, figure out the ppf you need to read the boat registration numbers .. and work the equation backwards from that ..

I use 100 ppf for ID distance, substitute the ppf you need from there .. this gives you a chance to determine the FOV you need .. most certainly a killer PTZ is worth having .. still you probably want a few fixed or varifocal cameras also
 

spammenotinoz

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That's what I'm hearing... imho one of those tracking PTZ with a mad sensor and mad zoom would be what I'd aim at + a ColourX for area coverage
I have never tried a PTZ but interesting concept. Think they would be too slow to respond IRL and create blur. Camera's and motion, never make good bedfellows, but interested in how you get on.
Personally go for ColourX (overview\coverage) as you outlined with overlapping IR cams with narrower FOV with 1 LPR camera. If I had the budget would have more ColourX with narrower FOV. Overview cams just don't have enough detail, but essential to identify clothing, skin color, car color ect.
Probably said this a lot here, but best value is get excellent motion triggered external lighting, this will improve the results of any camera.
Although lights on the water, fog and mist don't go together very well.
Infact visibility over any distance on the water is going to be problematic and extremely subject to weather conditions.
There just isn't any opportunity to get the camera's closer?

Do you have control over the registration stickers (ie: are they the boat club boats), if so you can go for a larger characters that are reflective to IR. So you can turn down the brightness on an LPR style camera, to aid identification.
 
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johnstjs

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Thanks for all of the replies.

The reason that we can't really use an optical zoom camera (or extremely long lens) is that waterways aren't like roads where you know a general area that a boat will be in. Unless we add quite a few cameras (cost prohibitive) then we need something else. I posted asking about the N85EFN2 for simplicity, but I would probably be using Andy's version for multiple reasons. Price is a big factor, but his also comes in 3.6mm lens that the Dahua does not. Here's a couple examples aof what we currently have that we hope we could improve on without breaking the bank. I've done quite a bit of research (tho I am by far not an expert which is why I'm here) and my thoughts on this camera were it has a 1/1.2" CMOS sensor which I believe would help with night views and is 8MP which should help a bith with the optical zoom.

We'd like to get a little better view if possible. I completely understand that one camera does not fit all. For other areas on the club we do have specific use cameras (a license plate camera, etc). We just can't cover the waterway in front of our club with the shear nubmer of cameras that would be needed. We're a small non-profit club on a tight budget. I was just hoping to find a happy medium somewhere between what we want vs what we can realistically afford and use. If Andy's 4k-x can give a noticable improvement over what we have even if it doesn't meet what I'm hoping for, I can justify the purchase to our board or directors. Since I don't need to recognize people, but boats I think I can stretch the DORI distances a bit. Getting the registration numbers is a nice to have. But if we can get a difinitive boat make and model that would be huge (especially at night). Observe would be good enough for 90% of our use cases for these cameras. With Recognize filling in the gap. For these cameras with don't need Identify.

Andy - on your Amazon site, you give some DORI distances for this camera, but it doesn't list your 6mm version. Do you have those specs? I'm not sure if I can cover the area I want with a 6mm lens, but I'm willing to try. I think I have an old zoom camera laying around that I can set at 6mm to test my filed of view with.

Thanks for all of the help and guidance!!!!!

Jeff

Current camera #1 - Dahua IPC-HFW4239T-ASE. 1/2.8 CMOS sensor, 2MP, 3.6mm lens
ramp-midnight.JPG
ramp-morning.JPG

Camera #2 - Dahua N43AJ52. 1/3" CMOS sensor, 4MP, 2.8mm lens
northdocks-midnight.JPG
northdocks-morning.JPG

For those that asked - Boat registration numbers are 3" lettering on the bow of a boat.
boat-registration.jpg
 

wittaj

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Yeah, the 4K/X will certainly provide better nighttime than what you are experiencing with those cameras!

I still think the registration will be too much of a stretch, but as you said, if you can see enough of the boat to be able to make out what it is, I think it would do fine.

I would probably consider also adding a PTZ that you could have your VMS use your fixed cams to tell the PTZ where to look when a boat is moving. The 49225 would be the economical choice, but I think those are finally sold out so the 49425 it would be.

I am not a big fan of a PTZ in a moving cycle as the camera is always pointing the wrong way when action happens, but in this case a PTZ on patrol cycle going up and down the dock would work to get you registration numbers as this is a different use case than a person or vehicle.
 

Flintstone61

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If registration capture due to theft or unwanted docking or boarding of other craft is what your after, you need to decide which "lane" in a sense, to focus on most likely. Your covering too broad an area for registration reading everywhere in the shot. If they approch the dock in a water craft, which are the most frequently used paths to the dock? I'd certainly try to employ the "overview camera" IPC-Color4K-X , coupled with a 5241-z12 that can ( with the least amount of zoom) read registrations in a given area. I would think the "lane" just out in front of the dock would be an area of interest. If they are just cruising by and out 50 -100 feet from the dock, they may not be registrations of interest. (unless they change course)
 

johnstjs

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Thanks again all

Quick question - I have an N43AF5Z that I can use for testing. If I choose to go with the IPC-Color-4K-X, I still need to decide what lens to go with. I'd like to use the 5Z that I have to see what my view is with a 6mm lens. Can I see wha tthe zoom level is set at with that camera? I can see it as a percentage, I'm looking to see if I can tell exactly what lens length is set at.
 

berto01

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is it 150 yards or feet?

are you moving the camera closer ? IPC-Color-4K-X isn't going to get you 150'
 

johnstjs

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roughly 150ft and we're not planning on moving the camera. Based on the chart below and the fact that I don't need facial recognition (I believe Observe may be good enough for what I want), it may work. I'd like to see the DORI specs for the 6mm version and also verify that it still gives me the field of view I'm after.

Hoping Andy can chime in with that info.

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biggen

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you are going to get registration numbers at 150' with a 6mm lens. You will need much more zoom I believe from my LPR experience.

If you just need boat make and model then "maybe" a 6mm will work at that distance. You can run long shutter times to increase light but that adds its own problems into the mix via motion blur.
 

bigredfish

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Sorry just skimmed this but I think @wittaj touched on using a good (or a couple) overview camera like the 4K-X that doubles as a spotter for a high power PTZ.
The 6 series PTZ with the laser IR is awesome and tracks well out to 500-600 ft as shown in the video below. It will go further but I'm limited in distance

(Remember to choose 1440 for the Youtube player)


SD6AL433XA-HNR

Sign at about 600+ft
HOA Entr_IP PTZ Camera_main_20220810115335_@3.jpg HOA Entr_IP PTZ Camera_main_20220810115400_@3.jpg HOA Entr_IP PTZ Camera_main_20220810115511_@3.jpg
 
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berto01

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from someone that just went from a 2.8 to a 3.6 there is a decent change so i bet a 6mm would be great... Ill prob buy one just to test out in my back yard cause i want something to get a little closer.

but with that being said 150' isn't going to pick up registration numbers. Your going to need zoom.
 

johnstjs

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Thanks all

The PTZ camera looks awesome, but I just don't think I could justify $1500 for a single camera. I will lok into it to see if I can. How is the SD6AL433XA-HNR at night
 
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