Ubiquiti question.....

[sdkid]

I am helping a local business-- their location is several blocks outside the service radius of decent broadband-- they said they would get him service if HE paid for the expansion of THEIR network line. He is on phone-line DSL.... ugh.

So--- how LITERAL is the term "line of sight" for the different Ubiquiti products? Can it go through Some trees? Ub has some very inexpensive products that they rate as having a 15km range. For example:

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti NanoBeam ac Gen2 High-Performance airMAX ac Bridge (NBE-5AC-Gen2-US): Computers & Accessories

I am trying to figure out if this might be a decent way for his business to get a reasonable internet connection, but planning an air link to a source might be tricky. Has anyone used this in less-than-ideal conditions with any success?

 

[TonyR]

Has anyone used this in less-than-ideal conditions with any success?

Yes, but I must qualify that statement:
Using 2.4GHz Nanostations (not Locos), one setup traveled very well about 300 feet total with 100 ft. of that through mature, leafed trees and pines. Although slightly degraded by the less than ideal LOS, the signal was good enough, as compared to the background (it had good signal-to-noise ratio) to provide a fast and reliable network connection between the 2 points.

I did some installs for a commercial WISP between 2011 and 2013 and 2 of them were through some pretty dense foliage and trees for perhaps as much as 300 feet of 800 feet total distance that performed well but both were 900 MHz UBNT radios. Typically with these type of consumer radios of this power the lower the frequency the better the penetration of foliage.

I strongly suggest a site survey or test setup be done so that real-world data can be looked at before a decision is made. The owner of the WISP I mentioned before would use an Ubiquiti radio on a telescoping pole and go around the prospective customer's house looking at the Ubiquitii AirOS software on a laptop to determine the best location and if the speed, signal strength to background noise ratio were acceptable BEFORE performing the installation.

I did that in that first 2.4GHz install I mentioned in the first paragraph: zip-tied the "Access Point" to an outdoor vertical 2x4 stud propped with bricks against a wall and strung Ethernet patch cable to the router; at the other end ("Station') zip-tied that radio to a front porch column; pointed the 2 radios at each other using a compass on my smartphone and Google maps coordinates; fired up the embedded software's site survey and looked at the data, made a decision. Worked great for over 2 years until the house at the station end burned down!

 

[biggen]

I am helping a local business-- their location is several blocks outside the service radius of decent broadband-- they said they would get him service if HE paid for the expansion of THEIR network line. He is on phone-line DSL.... ugh.

So--- how LITERAL is the term "line of sight" for the different Ubiquiti products? Can it go through Some trees? Ub has some very inexpensive products that they rate as having a 15km range. For example:

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti NanoBeam ac Gen2 High-Performance airMAX ac Bridge (NBE-5AC-Gen2-US): Computers & Accessories

I am trying to figure out if this might be a decent way for his business to get a reasonable internet connection, but planning an air link to a source might be tricky. Has anyone used this in less-than-ideal conditions with any success?

At 5Ghz its pretty literal. I wouldn't do it unless you have perfect LOS at that frequency. Also, depending on the distance you have to take into account the Fresnel Zone.. For example, the further you need to transmit/receive, the higher you need to mount both sending and receiving antennas because the radio signal doesn't just go in a perfectly straight line. It "bulges" like the shape of a Goodyear Blimp. If that bulge contacts trees, houses, whatever, then that will also effect your signal.

airMAX - Planning an Outdoor Wireless Link

Overview Readers will learn how the tools and concepts for planning a outdoor wireless link. Distance is one important factor when you consider link planning. However, there are also other importan...

help.ui.com

 

[handinpalm]

You never stated how far your link distance is to the access point. The distance specs on these radios is for "free space", meaning nothing in LOS, no reflections off buildings, no attenuation from trees, no interference from other radios in band, etc. Keep in mind that the RF energy for free spaces decreases by the inverse of the distance squared. Meaning the RF energy decreases exponentially as distance increases. If you are not shooting the signal too far (well under the 15km range) then that would be a great benefit and you could then tolerate some attenuation from the trees. As Tony stated, operating at lower frequencies will give you better penetration through the trees, so go with the 2.4GHz range instead of 5Ghz. Also need to analyze how densely populated the area is for radio interference from others. Good thing about these Ubiquiti systems, looks like they can analyze the outside interference and hop channels to a quieter channel.

 

[sdkid]

You never stated how far your link distance is to the access point. The distance specs on these radios is for "free space", meaning nothing in LOS, no reflections off buildings, no attenuation from trees, no interference from other radios in band, etc. Keep in mind that the RF energy for free spaces decreases by the inverse of the distance squared. Meaning the RF energy decreases exponentially as distance increases. If you are not shooting the signal too far (well under the 15km range) then that would be a great benefit and you could then tolerate some attenuation from the trees. As Tony stated, operating at lower frequencies will give you better penetration through the trees, so go with the 2.4GHz range instead of 5Ghz. Also need to analyze how densely populated the area is for radio interference from others. Good thing about these Ubiquiti systems, looks like they can analyze the outside interference and hop channels to a quieter channel.

Yes--- I figured that when it states a 15km range, that is in the absolute Best possible conditions. The Fresnel Zone graphic from the link posted above is really great....

The key for him in trying to use this as a solution is to partner up with another business that HAS the broadband service and would be willing to have a ubiquiti dish mounted. This is really just at the brainstorming stages. He has another business that could get service about 1,500 yards away--- but there is a hill in the way. His building sits at a higher elevation than most of the rest of town.

You're right about the nature of frequency--- perhaps these 2.4Ghz radios would be better suited to deal with a little interference in that LOS

Amazon.com: PowerBeam AC PBE-2AC-400-US airMAX 2.4GHz 802.11ac High Gain Dish CPE 400m 2Pack : Everything Else

Amazon.com: PowerBeam AC PBE-2AC-400-US airMAX 2.4GHz 802.11ac High Gain Dish CPE 400m 2Pack : Everything Else

www.amazon.com

I have used Ubiquiti access points for years-- solid performance from them. It seems like it would be a fun nerdy project to connect a network between remote sites.

 

[biggen]

The issue with 2.4ghz is that because you do get more penetration, you have lots of clutter in that spectrum from other radios because their signals also carry far away as well. And remember, the 2.4Ghz spectrum is tiny compared to 5Ghz. There just isn't a lot of room to find clear channels like their is at 5Ghz. 5Ghz can also use DFS frequencies (depending on your location) which are usually totally clean unless you have a large weather radar installation nearby.

Using PtP radios mitigates some of the above since they are directional. You can also get shielded isolated antennas which will further help in crowded spectrum. It just all depends on the area you are installing. Lots of variables to work with.

 

[TonyR]

Using PtP radios mitigates some of the above since they are directional. You can also get shielded isolated antennas which will further help in crowded spectrum. It just all depends on the area you are installing. Lots of variables to work with.

^^ This.
Which is why I highly recommend a site survey since it's so simple using UBNT's software....no valid reason not to.

 

[sdkid]

OK--- LONG POST COMING....

The issue with 2.4ghz is that because you do get more penetration, you have lots of clutter in that spectrum from other radios because their signals also carry far away as well. And remember, the 2.4Ghz spectrum is tiny compared to 5Ghz. ...

Excellent-- there are always negatives that go with the positives! Let me flesh this idea out a bit more. I want to know where this is little plan WON'T work before I go any further...

The business owner I'm working with knows the owner of this grain elevator and thinks he can talk him into allowing two small antennas to be placed up there-- it would be very good LOS to his business locations.



His used car dealership DOES have broadband service. The working idea then is a little more ambitious than connecting an outbuilding to your house. It would be a 4-antenna system with the grain elevator (assuming permission is granted) being the repeater link. We would mount an antenna (1) at his dearlership to beam a signal to the top of that tower, receive it with an antenna (2), and hand it off to another antenna (3) up there to then beam that data signal forward to his repair business where antenna (4) would receive it. LOS is clear and totally unobstructed from the repair business roof to that elevator. This old street view is from before his repair shop building was constructed (60x80 steel with 16' ceiling height, gable peak is about 25 feet high). The top of the grain elevator is circled as seen from ground level...



Overview of the whole idea.... X in the middle is the grain elevator. Repair shop at the top, and dealership (origin of the broadband connection) at bottom. Note-- in the circled green area, there are a few trees next to his dealership that would infringe on his LOS to the elevator tower.


view of those trees just north of the dealership.... this is the weak link in the idea...

^^ This.
Which is why I highly recommend a site survey since it's so simple using UBNT's software....no valid reason not to.

The only valid reason would be not having the equipment on hand needed to do the testing. It would absolutely be critical for someone doing this work as a business.

I told my friend it really needs to be true line of sight to work--- and those trees north of his business may make this not feasible... BUT--- He also knows some people who live up on top of the hill that could act as the repeater site.....


Street view looking up the hill.... issues there would be trees near the house.


OK --- tell me where my thinking is off, or where this just won't work please!

 

[sebastiantombs]

You do realize the antenna on the grain elevator, or on the hilltop, need to be "active", a second set of Locos, and will therefor need AC power somewhere near by.

 

[Old Timer]

Everything on a grain elevator needs to be explosion proof due to the problem of grain dust exploding.
Probably the best way would be to have an electrician install a proper box up top with power inside,
then you install power supply and injectors inside the box.

 

[biggen]

Trees will be a problem. I wouldn't even attempt this without 100% clear LOS. Its too much work and time invested to screw around with trees getting in the way.

Other than that, if you can get clear LOS I don't see an issue. You will have to weather secure the radios/switch at the grain elevator site (or wherever the middle point is you choose). That can be a simple NEMA enclosure with all the electronics/electrical stuffed inside it. There are lots of radio/antenna choices from UBNT.

 

[sdkid]

Trees will be a problem. I wouldn't even attempt this without 100% clear LOS. Its too much work and time invested to screw around with trees getting in the way.

Other than that, if you can get clear LOS I don't see an issue.

I need to get on the roof of the dealership to see just what can be seen....

He is paying for 2 DSL connections at his repair shop-- $250 a month for terrible speeds-- he has to spend $3,000 a year for crap service. The cable-tv broadband provider (Midco) wanted $7,500 from HIM to trench line to his business from 3 or 4 blocks away-- essentially having Him pay for their network expansion to gain customers. If an antenna system can be set up to work reliably-- it would end up saving him a lot of money.

Everything on a grain elevator needs to be explosion proof due to the problem of grain dust exploding.
Probably the best way would be to have an electrician install a proper box up top with power inside,
then you install power supply and injectors inside the box.

Excellent point. Definitely want power done properly and to code on that structure. I know they put a ton of Christmas lights on it every year, so power is available. Getting some into a sealed box for the injectors shouldn't be a big deal.

Question-- could these 2 repeater antennas be hooked directly to each other (with POE injectors for each of course)? They wouldn't need a switch sitting between them-- would they?

 

[biggen]

Yeah you can use injectors or a switch. I’m not sure injectors saves much space since then you have to use two wall warts to power the injectors vs one wall wart for a single PoE switch.

 

[sdkid]

Yeah you can use injectors or a switch. I’m not sure injectors saves much space since then you have to use two wall warts to power the injectors vs one wall wart for a single PoE switch.

I don't think you can use a standard POE switch with these. They are like so many other Ubiquiti products that have their own propietary POE standard.



They also recommend doubling up on inline ethernet surge protection.... one near the antenna and another just before the cable enters the building....

NanoBeam 5AC2 quick start guide.....

NBE-5AC-Gen2 Quick Start Guide

dl.ubnt.com

 

[Old Timer]

Trees will be a problem. I wouldn't even attempt this without 100% clear LOS. Its too much work and time invested to screw around with trees getting in the way.

Other than that, if you can get clear LOS I don't see an issue. You will have to weather secure the radios/switch at the grain elevator site (or wherever the middle point is you choose). That can be a simple NEMA enclosure with all the electronics/electrical stuffed inside it. There are lots of radio/antenna choices from UBNT.

Looks like a NEMA-4 box would work.
If you have just a little stuff in the way, I have used 900m links where I had trees in the way and it still worked well.
The down side, is the link will be slower, the bandwidth is not available there.

You can hook then back to back if you do not need to drop out internet there.

 

[sdkid]

Looks like a NEMA-4 box would work.
If you have just a little stuff in the way, I have used 900m links where I had trees in the way and it still worked well.
The down side, is the link will be slower, the bandwidth is not available there.

You can hook then back to back if you do not need to drop out internet there.

All of this is hypothetical at this point-- but getting closer to an actual plan. This will be really cool if he gets permission from that elevator owner. If I can go to the top and see the roof of his dealership business-- then we can get a lot more serious in planning. Elevators usually have enclosed equipment rooms on top of the storage structures-- that would be the best place to get power and secure the POE's and connections-- safe and out of the elements.

Do you think this wiring layouyt would work? using the POE for Power only, and using the extra port on each antenna to link them and continue the signal....



OR--- should that output on the left unit be plugged into the "IN" port of the POE for the second unit?

 

[MrSurly]

How about installing an antenna mast at the dealership to simply go over the trees?
I have a 55’ jack up tower for a TV antenna on my house. Given the clear LOS, I wonder how much mast sway would affect the Link...

 

[sdkid]

How about installing an antenna mast at the dealership to simply go over the trees?
I have a 55’ jack up tower for a TV antenna on my house. Given the clear LOS, I wonder how much mast sway would affect the Link...

I think these need to be attached to something VERY solid and not moving when the wind blows.

 

[biggen]

All of this is hypothetical at this point-- but getting closer to an actual plan. This will be really cool if he gets permission from that elevator owner. If I can go to the top and see the roof of his dealership business-- then we can get a lot more serious in planning. Elevators usually have enclosed equipment rooms on top of the storage structures-- that would be the best place to get power and secure the POE's and connections-- safe and out of the elements.

Do you think this wiring layouyt would work? using the POE for Power only, and using the extra port on each antenna to link them and continue the signal....

View attachment 70508

OR--- should that output on the left unit be plugged into the "IN" port of the POE for the second unit?

I think the way you have it depicted is correct. I have a pair of older Nanobeams but I don't use the injectors and its been about 5 years since I hooked them up. Both of them are fed through PoE switches.

 

[Holbs]

wanted to toss out another manufacturer option. At my day job, we have been using Ubiquiti products for years. However, 2 latest projects had us shooting across 1/4 mile of water and 7 different Ubiquiti projects could not deliver (water reflection was horrendous). #2 job involved shooting 1/2 mile LOS with a concrete warehouse in the middle nearly blocking the LOS (Ubiquiti did not like this at all). Boss man asked some dish internet for suggestions. Microtech or Microtek (can't find pics or a link at the moment) to the rescue. While Ubiquiti plays with 2.4 and 5, this Mircrotech (or Microtek) runs with 60Ghz and solved both issues. I believe the price was 10-20% higher.
They do use standard POE injectors. They do not require any static/dynamic IP's on the network as they are simple passthru's with their own IP's.
aha! found them:

LHG 60G | MikroTik

For use as 60GHz CPE in Point -to-Multipoint setups for connections up to 800m with a 60GHz Base Stations, with Gigabit Ethernet port for speeds up to 1Gbps

mikrotik.com