Wireless woes... Looking for constructive discussion.

joedav1228

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I have the typical WiFi camera issues with I get the "no signal" message quite often.

I've searched and searched and really spent a good deal of time digging around. I know it's easy for the people with wired setups to say "eh, WiFi sucks, it'll never work, go wired" and I get it, going wired will probably work alot better and with a whole lot less work but deep down I REFUSE to admit that WiFi cameras as a whole will never work. There are a ton of brands selling an array of WiFi models and there is no way all of them fail to work. If WiFi was that bad I'm sure all of those companies wouldn't even offer WiFi cameras as an option. I see a bunch of people who say they don't have issues at all.

It all comes down to knowledge, some people really know how to get the most efficiency out of their WiFi setup and really understand the inner workings. This WiFi issue is so prevalent and widespread it would serve the community well to have a sticky thread. I could create something with a bullet list of common items to checks, parameters to change etc....

I am running just 1 Amcrest camera with Blue Iris (trial version):

It looks like I am limited to ONLY 2.4 ghz, I saw some threads about moving to 5 ghz and/or creating an entirely new WiFi SSID to kind of partition the camera traffic. In theory, if I could tag the Amcrest network traffic to ensure a higher priority, would that help? Just looking for some ideas, advice and any kind of assistance. PLEASE don't just jump in and say WiFi sucks and go wired, I'm really trying to make these things work.
 

Bryan

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I looked up the technical specs..b/g/n only at 2.4 ghz Depending on how far away you have the camera, you might need a signal booster. Watch when it drops out..rain, fog etc?. Or if it is constant enough, unplug other devices that might be competing with the wireless signal. How are you powering the camera? Netgear use to have a neat device that worked for computers. Ethernet over your house wiring..One device plugged in AC outlet near your computer (maybe camera) with ethernet cable plugged in. Other device plugged in AC outlet near router. Always worked and very fast.
 

kklee

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I've never found the built-in wifi of any camera to be reliable. The only camera I currently have running on wifi is a doorbell, which is its only option. It's more stable on 5GHz than 2.4GHz, but still drops out every once in a while regardless of whether it's on a dedicated SSID or a shared one (AP less than 10 feet away). I have a pretty robust and well tuned wifi infrastructure using Ubiquiti Unifi gear, so I know the wifi infrastructure is solid, but if the device has weak wifi, there's not much you can do to compensate for that.

A couple of alternatives:
  • I found that a wifi bridge is far more reliable than the camera wifi, but still can drop out, I had to reset the bridge every once in a while. I used this for many years for a camera in my garage.
  • Powerline network adapters work extremely well, I replaced my garage wifi bridge setup with a powerline network adapter. Haven't experienced any dropouts.
 
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biggen

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Generally, Wifi sucks for constant streaming of live video. Sorry. Its is just how it is. The only real option for someone that is dead set on using wireless is to build out a separate dedicated wireless network just for a camera deployment. You would have to do a site survey first and determine camera and AP placement(s) before installation.

It takes skill, time, and knowledge. You can't simply slap up an AP somewhere in your house and assume your wireless cameras will work. You have to have some knowledge about overlapping wifi channels, signal strength, wireless airtime contention, channel width, what channels your neighbors are running and how to avoid them, etc...

You can move the AP closer to your camera which should improve bandwidth and, in turn, lower airtime contention for that wireless device. But being that you are limited to 2.4Ghz is another issue. Especially if you have lots of wireless chatter surrounding you. Run a wireless scan on your phone and see how full the 2.4Ghz spectrum is. All those overlapping channels cause collisions/re-transmit issues for wireless devices. That lowers effective speed and increases latency. No one should be building out 2.4Ghz dedicated wifi system nowadays. The move is to get people onto 5Ghz with multiple/dense smaller Wifi cell coverage instead of a single massive 2.4Ghz coverage zone which causes all kinds of issues.
 
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spuls

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It looks like I am limited to ONLY 2.4 ghz, I saw some threads about moving to 5 ghz and/or creating an entirely new WiFi SSID to kind of partition the camera traffic. In theory, if I could tag the Amcrest network traffic to ensure a higher priority, would that help? Just looking for some ideas, advice and any kind of assistance. PLEASE don't just jump in and say WiFi sucks and go wired, I'm really trying to make these things work.
Wifi is a shared medium, so additional ssid´s won´t help if against signal issues. it could get worse, because every ssid addon protocol overhead - but you still have only the same shared medium/bandwidth.
we have lot´s of wifi cameras in our production with no issues at all. but behind it is a dense 5ghz wifi network, adapted antennas and no devices with ancient standards.

and of course wifi is controversial in the security area, finally radio signals can be blocked with manageable effort. especially for cheap wlan accesspoints a 10$ raspberry zero w is sufficient to kill your wifi. on the other hand, such an attempt is an immense beacon which can also be used as a trigger for wired cameras or other alarms.
 
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I have the typical WiFi camera issues with I get the "no signal" message quite often.

I've searched and searched and really spent a good deal of time digging around. I know it's easy for the people with wired setups to say "eh, WiFi sucks, it'll never work, go wired" and I get it, going wired will probably work alot better and with a whole lot less work but deep down I REFUSE to admit that WiFi cameras as a whole will never work. There are a ton of brands selling an array of WiFi models and there is no way all of them fail to work. If WiFi was that bad I'm sure all of those companies wouldn't even offer WiFi cameras as an option. I see a bunch of people who say they don't have issues at all.

It all comes down to knowledge, some people really know how to get the most efficiency out of their WiFi setup and really understand the inner workings. This WiFi issue is so prevalent and widespread it would serve the community well to have a sticky thread. I could create something with a bullet list of common items to checks, parameters to change etc....

I am running just 1 Amcrest camera with Blue Iris (trial version):

It looks like I am limited to ONLY 2.4 ghz, I saw some threads about moving to 5 ghz and/or creating an entirely new WiFi SSID to kind of partition the camera traffic. In theory, if I could tag the Amcrest network traffic to ensure a higher priority, would that help? Just looking for some ideas, advice and any kind of assistance. PLEASE don't just jump in and say WiFi sucks and go wired, I'm really trying to make these things work.
"I REFUSE to admit that WiFi cameras as a whole will never work." Ok @joedav1228 i would love to follow your sticky thread as you can start it. Learn all you can and implement what you learn and share it in a post, so that we can all be convinced that wifi can be reliable. Take the suggestions that your are given and try them and report it in a thread so we can all see what the outcome is. Welcome and good luck!
 

sebastiantombs

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Don't forget a type N barrel connector if you order this with a N female to BSP cable so it can actually be used.
 

SouthernYankee

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I have posted this before.

I did a wifi test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a wifi analyzer software I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate SSID and access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.

As a side note, it is very easy to jam a wifi network. Wifi is OK for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.

Test do not guess.
 
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kklee

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The bottom line with any form of RF is bandwidth. Exceed that and communication becomes unreliable to impossible.
Expanding on this:

Wifi's raw data speed does not reflect actual network speed, real network speed is always much lower due to overhead and signal strength.

As others have noted, you're breaking up that bandwidth among several devices. Throw in interference from neighbouring AP's and other things such as Microwave ovens, it's hard to maintain a reliable steady data stream with 2.4GHz. It's better with 5GHz on 802.11ac, but then you're dealing with much shorter range, the signal drops off quite quickly the farther you get from the AP and does not pass through walls as readily as 2.4GHz.

Most wifi cameras also only run single stream wifi, so your bandwidth is handicapped compared to other devices like a phone or tablet, which run more streams.
 

reflection

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If you can get line-of-sight between your camera and AP, and you swap out the antennas on the camera and AP with directional antennas, you should get a decent, consistent signal with not too much interference. It may not look pretty though. And you would have to get your AP outdoors (or at least its antenna) to get line-of-sight. And it would also be one AP per wifi camera since you have directional antennas.
 

mikeynags

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If you can get line-of-sight between your camera and AP, and you swap out the antennas on the camera and AP with directional antennas, you should get a decent, consistent signal with not too much interference. It may not look pretty though. And you would have to get your AP outdoors (or at least its antenna) to get line-of-sight. And it would also be one AP per wifi camera since you have directional antennas.
Run a wire, in the end, it is much easier and cheaper in the long run.
 

jmhmcse

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Points to Ponder:
  • WiFi is a shared medium
  • all 2.4Ghz channels overlap next 3 channels; optimum use of spectrum is if everyone only use 1, 6, or 11
  • use of any other channel creates interference (dropped packets, retries, e.g. slower speed) for all. it is better to have lots of traffic that "play nice" on a single channel than have someone not use 1, 6, or 11.
  • being shared medium, what may work today may not work tomorrow; your usage of your wifi, the neighbor's usage of their wifi (on same or overlapping channel), addition of another AP by anyone changes the available throughput
  • wifi traffic is half duplex; e.g. 11Mb is actually 5.5 in a perfect world, 54Mb is actually 27, etc. real-world is best case is typically around 80% (11Mb is realistically 8.8Mb)
  • adding a dedicated SSID will not help connectivity or throughput
  • a signal booster or wifi bridge (additional device) may allow further distance, but will again cut throughput in half; Access Point (AP) to bridge (11 is actually 5.5) and then bridge to camera (5.5 is actually 2.75)
  • your mileage may (will) vary with ethernet over house wiring; a lot of "it depends" , how is house wired, which breaker is each device is on, same or opposite phase, etc
  • 5Ghz may (for now) perform better as those channels are not as heavily used as 2.4Ghz, nor do the base channels overlap. bonding is a whole another story. the double edge sword is that 5Ghz doesn't travel as far and only your closest neighbor causes issues not the entire neighborhood, though you may need more AP's for the same household coverage.

constructive comments....
  • if you have an older router with built-in wifi or access point devices, you might replace it with a newer model. older devices had lower rf power limits than do the current models.
  • relocate your AP closer to the wifi camera; though if you have or will have multiple wifi cameras this probably would cause one of the others to misbehave
  • frequently check which channels you use to what's happening in the neighborhood. perhaps changing to a different channel will (temporarily) provide better reliability
  • change wifi devices within the household to wired; free up throughput for wifi camera(s)
  • mod camera, install better antenna

final comments...

obviously wifi cameras do work, there are a lot on the market. they just don't work as reliably as a wired camera.

wifi cameras have a time and place in which they are valuable to use, but they are not the best choice for security monitoring.

the best way ?only way? to fully resolve a "no signal" reoccurring issue from a wifi camera (or any other device) is to hard wire the device.

there is no silver bullet that will magically make wifi devices behave as if they are wired devices
 

th182

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This was an interesting read with a lot of information! I too have a strong WiFi network with unifi gear where the channel was selected based on surrounding networks. All oft cameras are on a dedicated Ethernet network. I had a single camera in the garage (Amcrest) running on wifi while I tested different locations to mount it. It would drop out frequently with no pattern to it. Once I decided it's final location and ran ethernet to it all the dropouts stoped.

I feel like the consumer level wifi camera systems are so popular because they are "easy" to setup compared to running wires everywhere. There are probably not many complaints about signal dropouts because it doesn't get noticed. Everyone I know who has a wifi/cloud camera setup doesn't have a monitor up that shows the live view 24/7. I only knew I was having dropouts because I would see the "no signal" screen or if it dropped out long enough Blue Iris would send a notification. I suspect that the cloud systems don't notify you when the cameras briefly drop out due to wifi congestion. So people likely don't know how often it happens. They probably only record motion as well so they wouldn't know of missing video from a dropout.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

biggen

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I feel like the consumer level wifi camera systems are so popular because they are "easy" to setup compared to running wires everywhere. There are probably not many complaints about signal dropouts because it doesn't get noticed. Everyone I know who has a wifi/cloud camera setup doesn't have a monitor up that shows the live view 24/7. I only knew I was having dropouts because I would see the "no signal" screen or if it dropped out long enough Blue Iris would send a notification. I suspect that the cloud systems don't notify you when the cameras briefly drop out due to wifi congestion. So people likely don't know how often it happens. They probably only record motion as well so they wouldn't know of missing video from a dropout.
The Rings, Arlos, and Nests of the world (e.g. consumer wifi cameras) are just junk. There is no other way to put it. They are designed for people that don't have any of the IT know how to use a real IP camera and are intended to just have the end user screw them into the wall somewhere and turn it on with little to no configuration required. I get it. There is a market for that.

My in-laws have an Arlo wireless system. Its so bad. You can't change and set the camera's base station's wifi channel. As a result, it will hop around constantly trying to pick a clear channel but it does a poor job in doing so. When I look at the RF spectrum on my phone using a scanner, their camera base station is always overlapping with their in-house wifi which is a big no-no.

Great WiFi deployments take time. Especially something as complicated as streaming realtime video.
 
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It looks like I am limited to ONLY 2.4 ghz, I saw some threads about moving to 5 ghz and/or creating an entirely new WiFi SSID to kind of partition the camera traffic. In theory, if I could tag the Amcrest network traffic to ensure a higher priority, would that help? Just looking for some ideas, advice and any kind of assistance. PLEASE don't just jump in and say WiFi sucks and go wired, I'm really trying to make these things work.
WiFi for security cameras isn't recommended because the 2.4 GHz band is full of garbage due to interference from all the cheap Chinese consumer electronics in every household, and all the devices being used by your neighbors. I have a few WiFi cameras right inside my home, and I still get occasional dropouts as compared to my rock-solid PoE external cameras. You're fighting an uphill battle, but if you are bound and determined to stick with WiFi, consider these options:

(1) Powerline network adapters. Your camera has an Ethernet port, so take advantage of it. You can get enough bandwidth over your AC wiring to make the camera work.

(2) A good tri-band mesh router system to improve coverage in and around your home.

(3) Install an SD card inside the camera, and configure it for continuous recording. If (when) your WiFi drops out, you can at least recover an uninterrupted recording when your connection comes back.
 

SouthernYankee

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Improving the power on your access point does almost nothing for your cameras, the the vast amount of data is flowing from the camera to the access point.

When you add a new SSID you use a different channel for your cameras, so this does help your through put. Your wifi cameras will not be interfering with your youtube, roku, laptop...

The use of cameras on a wifi network is completely different then most other wifi network typologies.

Look at the QOS on your router, this may be able to improve your traffic (have not tested)

TEST DO NOT GUESS.

Note I use wifi for cell phones,tablets, some laptops,Nothing else, the tvs, printers, PCs, sonos, roku are all hardwired.
 
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I ran a wireless bridge from one Asus RT-AC68/U router in my garage with a pair of these antennas to another RT-AC68/U inside the house. It was reasonably reliable, but nowhere near 100%. Cameras often went off-line or had drop-outs or lost connection. It was good enough for a long time, and last year I finally had the electricians come out and pull wire for me. No more drops, no more disconnects, no more issues, period.
 
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