Camera Upgrade Time - TIOC 1.0 vs TIOC 2.0 vs Dual Lens Full Color 2.0

[Chasing Pixels]

Hi everyone,

I'm a longtime reader of the forum and figured that I should finally create an account and ask for advice.
Thanks for all the help over the years with your posts!

I'm currently shopping for some outdoor PoE camera upgrades.
I'm replacing some 7 year old Jooan (made by Dahua IIRC) 720p/1080p cameras (one has a failing CCD, another has a failing cut IR cut filter).

I'm looking for cameras to deter "troublemakers" from stepping on my home's property at night (teenagers looking for trouble) and to identify what happened (vs. identifying who / a face).
As part of the upgrade, I'm planning on feeding streams to Frigate and triggering Home Assistant automations to simulate someone being home.

My street has "good" street lighting and I can use Frigate/Home Assistant to turn on additional outdoor lights if a human is detected.
Two vehicles are parked between 2.5m (8ft) and 4m (13ft) away from the cameras in my driveway.
Both the passenger's and driver's side have camera coverage at those distances.
The road is about 18-21m (60-70ft) away from the cameras.

I'm between a TIOC 1.0, a TIOC 2.0 and waiting for the full color 2.0 cameras (thank you @Wildcat_1 for your review!).
Below is my current order of preference. I'm leaning towards a IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV (and eventually adding two).

TIOC 1.0 - IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV - 3.6mm
Pros:
-Price has come down significantly
-Active voice deterrence / relay output would save me from having to rely on Frigate for human detection.
-Wont suffer the CPU limitations of the 8MP version
-I like how the warm white LED can increase in brightness if a human is detected

Cons:
-1/2.7”


Dual Lens Full Color 2.0 - DH-IPC-HFW5449T1-ASE+D2 - 3.6mm
Pros:
-Amazing low light performance
-Amazing new design
-Better processor

Cons:
-Price in CAD (I can buy 2x IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV for the price of one Full Color 2.0)
-Frigate required for active deterrence
-Beta tester, first version of a new design


TIOC 2.0 - IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV-S3 - 3.6mm
Pros:
-Adds IR capability
-Faster processor

Cons:
-Still a 1/2.7"
-Price increase
-Doesn't meet my requirements any better vs IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV


What do you think about my logic behind going with the IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV?
Should I wait and see final pricing on Full Color 2.0?
Am I biased towards the TIOC 1.0 and overestimating its low light performance (coming from low MP, large sensor IR cameras)?

Thanks so much!

 

[wittaj]

I have the first generation IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV and it is a nice camera for active deterrence. But the little flashing light won't scare anyone - with any ambient light that little flashing light gets washed out. I find it to be a nice overview camera with some active deterrence, but if you want it to be able to identify, then you really need to make sure the placement is ideal.

I assume the Full Color 2.0 you mean the 4K/X camera? If so, it has an audible alarm for active deterrence.

I have both cameras and the 4K/X will blow away the image of the 3549 all night long.

Here is the active deterrence with some house floodlights. It does really well if it has some light.

Here is the active deterrence with just the LED on the camera. You see the camera struggle when the shutter and parameters are dialed in to eliminate motion blur. The effective range is a lot smaller.

Here is the 4K/X with just the LED on the camera. It produces an incredible image with very little light. Compared to the 3549 with just it's LED and it is no contest the 4K/X wins easily.

If you are going to have some light available or are ok with the LEDs on on these cameras, I would go for the 4K/X.

If you don't think you would have enough light, then I would favor a camera that sees IR.

Reach out to @EMPIRETECANDY as he serves Canada and has competitive pricing.

 

[Chasing Pixels]

I have the first generation IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV and it is a nice camera for active deterrence. But the little flashing light won't scare anyone - with any ambient light that little flashing light gets washed out. I find it to be a nice overview camera with some active deterrence, but if you want it to be able to identify, then you really need to make sure the placement is ideal.

I assume the Full Color 2.0 you mean the 4K/X camera? If so, it has an audible alarm for active deterrence.

I have both cameras and the 4K/X will blow away the image of the 3549 all night long.

Here is the active deterrence with some house floodlights.

Here is the active deterrence with just the LED on the camera.

Here is the 4K/X with just the LED on the camera.

If you are going to have some light available or are ok with the LEDs on on these cameras, I would go for the 4K/X.

If you don't think you would have enough light, then I would favor a camera that sees IR.

Reach out to @EMPIRETECANDY as he serves Canada and has competitive pricing.

Thanks for those clips! Those are super helpful vs the ones I've seen on YouTube.

You summarized it perfectly - a good low light overview camera is what's needed.
I'm biased by my large sensor, low MP IR overview cameras in an area with good street lighting.
You've made me pause more and think about how I've been sucked into these small sensor Full Color cameras.

You're totally right about the dual lens Full Color 2.0 camera clarification. I updated the post with a model number (DH-IPC-HFW5449T1-ASE+D2).
The IPC-Color4K-X is about 320$ CAD whereas the IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV is about 150$ CAD.

I will for sure be purchasing from Andy. I've sent my colleagues to him and they were super happy with the Canadian prices/delivery.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah, I suspect most of the YT videos are at default/auto settings, so a static image looks a lot brighter with the 3549 than once you dial it in to eliminate blur. I think my settings above were 1/60 shutter.

That's right you are talking about the dual lens camera - yeah that one looks like an incredible unit that blends color with IR when needed if the field of view warrants it.

 

[Dualedge]

I'm on the same dilemma with TIOC 2 (IPC-HFW3549T1-AS-PV-S3) vs Dual lens (IPC-HFW5449T1-ASE+D2) ... I like IPC-Color4K-X but I think this model only comes in bullet as I prefer turret.

Dual Lens seem to win the low light and the look out it, it has active deterrent (alarm)? so what is the advantage of TIOC over this?

 

[user8963]

it has active deterrent (alarm)

no and all cameras which have these features are not as good as those who doesnt.
anytime you want something which have all, you get all but in a limited way.

just use a relay module and build your own "alarm" triggered by a pir sensor and/or IVS/SMD

sadly wildcat didnt post any real pictures of dual lens camera(only shitty ones) and there is no spec sheet which i can find, so maybe the bullet has alarm i/o as always,,

 

[Dualedge]

no and all cameras which have these features are not as good as those who doesnt.

damn... so only TIOC that has active deterrent?

 

[user8963]

what function do you mean by TIOC ?

RED BLUE led shit? yes

But any camera with alarm input/output could be used the same if you connect your own equip

you should not expect too much of these functions. in my opinion they are annoying and useless. any guest / you will trigger the alarm.
these tioc bullshit will never replace any alarm system.

 

[Dualedge]

not necessarily red and blue strobe but say if someone jump over my fence and enter the designated area, do this dual lens or IPC-Color4K-X has it's own siren? or do they need to be connected to separate equipment?
Sorry if the question is getting to the basic as I'm really new to this

 

[user8963]

- all this tioc bullshit is software based. so there might be problems with false triggers

so in my opinion its more a gimmic.
at least they made a new firmware to add a real switch to disarm it. but i am not sure if this only works if you have a dahua nvr

but you are correct. only tioc cameras have these functions. all other cameras which have alarm input/output can use this features also, but you have to made your own triggers with api cmds. its nothing what they have build in and you have just to click

 

[sebastiantombs]

The siren is kind of wimpy as well. How big can a speaker be that's inside a camera and how much power, watts, can an amplifier have that is powered, along with the camera, by PoE? TIOC to me is a gimmick for the unknowing and the lazy. No offense to Dahua or Andy, but stick with a real camera.

 

[Billyjack5]

- all this tioc bullshit is software based. so there might be problems with false triggers

so in my opinion its more a gimmic.
at least they made a new firmware to add a real switch to disarm it. but i am not sure if this only works if you have a dahua nvr

but you are correct. only tioc cameras have these functions. all other cameras which have alarm input/output can use this features also, but you have to made your own triggers with api cmds. its nothing what they have build in and you have just to click

I can confirm that you don't need an NVR to disarm the TIOC cameras. You can do it with the newer DMSS mobile app (at least on the Android version). In bench testing I've confirmed the substance of this video:

 

[user8963]

I can confirm that you don't need an NVR to disarm the TIOC cameras. You can do it with the newer DMSS mobile app (at least on the Android version). In bench testing I've confirmed the substance of this video:

i know that you can disarm it with the app. but this is real annoying open an app to turn it off when you just want to go out.

On newer nvr firmware you can add a link to the alarm input of nvr. so you can use a physical switch to disarm/arm it or even use alexa.

 

[Billyjack5]

Yeah, I saw that video, too. I find that burly guy's videos pretty informative. He has a pretty good video on the features of the TIOC 2.0 ptz camera, which you may have seen. I've been following the TIOC stuff because I have small gated courtyard (well lit) where a TIOC turret camera would be useful and I'm interested in seeing if the microphone sensitivity has actually improved in the newer version. I have a first generation version (4mp) that works fine but the mic is lacking.

 

[The Automation Guy]

Here is the 4K/X with just the LED on the camera. It produces an incredible image with very little light. Compared to the 3549 with just it's LED and it is no contest the 4K/X wins easily.

That clip with the 4K/X definitely has the wall mounted flood lights on. You can tell from the shadows - they always point to the light source.

 

[wittaj]

That clip with the 4K/X definitely has the wall mounted flood lights on. You can tell from the shadows - they always point to the light source.

It was a dying 100 lumen solar powered light that was on LOL. That is how impressive this camera is. The LED of the 4k/X was at 20%. It still looks dark back there.

This is with the 1200 lumen flood light on.

 

[Chasing Pixels]

what function do you mean by TIOC ?

RED BLUE led shit? yes

But any camera with alarm input/output could be used the same if you connect your own equip

you should not expect too much of these functions. in my opinion they are annoying and useless. any guest / you will trigger the alarm.
these tioc bullshit will never replace any alarm system.

I was hoping to have it only on a schedule say after 10PM and have it only alarm if it detected loitering vs just a guest passing through.
You're totally right it wont prevent something serious, but it may be enough to give a teenager second thoughts about looking for open car doors.

i know that you can disarm it with the app. but this is real annoying open an app to turn it off when you just want to go out.

On newer nvr firmware you can add a link to the alarm input of nvr. so you can use a physical switch to disarm/arm it or even use alexa.

I've never got a clear answer if you can program a schedule on the TIOC 1.0 without an NVR or the arm input. Worst case I would arm it on a schedule via the alarm arm input and an ESP8266. I would only want it on after 10PM at night.

Yeah, I saw that video, too. I find that burly guy's videos pretty informative. He has a pretty good video on the features of the TIOC 2.0 ptz camera, which you may have seen. I've been following the TIOC stuff because I have small gated courtyard (well lit) where a TIOC turret camera would be useful and I'm interested in seeing if the microphone sensitivity has actually improved in the newer version. I have a first generation version (4mp) that works fine but the mic is lacking.

That's where I'm thinking it would be useful for me too. Not expecting perfection, but something to give someone a second thought. That's all that's needed in my low crime city.

The siren is kind of wimpy as well. How big can a speaker be that's inside a camera and how much power, watts, can an amplifier have that is powered, along with the camera, by PoE? TIOC to me is a gimmick for the unknowing and the lazy. No offense to Dahua or Andy, but stick with a real camera.

You're right on the whimpy alarm.
For the use case of deterring teenagers, it's more something (e.g. "You are being recorded") to just let the person know they're being watched late at night if they're loitering.

I've also looked at using Frigate and Home Assistant to trigger MP3 voice clips via one of these: 3.57US $ 6% OFF|DY HV20T 12V/24V power supply10W/20W Voice playback module supporting Micro SD card MP3 music player for Arduino|Instrument Parts & Accessories| - AliExpress
E.g. If a human was on the driveway for longer than 20s after 10PM then play an audio clip "You are under video surveillance" 3 times and turn on the front lights.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Trigger an MP3 of a pump shotgun racking a round. That'll get their attention and may actually chase them off. The lights and sirens on TIOC cameras are kiddy toys. Most miscreants ignore the completely, even if they realize that there is video surveillance involved.

 

[wittaj]

The flashing red light won't even be noticed by anyone unless they look up at the camera, which can be a good thing for a clear shot LOL.

The alarms (audio and flashing light) are set up within the camera GUI based on a schedule. I doubt the NVR even has the capability to do that (except thru the option of using the e browser) since these are specialty cameras and they would field lots of calls from people trying to set that up on cameras that don't have it.

The audio is a much better deterrent than the flashing light, especially outside. Too much open space. But indoor is will bounce off all the walls.

The audio isn't loud, but it is loud enough for a perp to hear it and not wake up the neighbors. I do not hear mine inside even standing next to where it is located through a closed window. But at 2am it will be plenty loud enough for a perp to hear it.

 

[Flintstone61]

wtf is a TIOC