A switch or multiple switches

[gabtrillz]

POE Switch: This really comes down to if you have past experience with Enterprise hardware vs consumer grade. Price, features, noise, energy consumption, usually drives that decision. In the Tier 1 realm its going to be Cisco, Juniper, HP, Lenovo, IBM, Aruba, Brocade, Dell / EMC, etc.

There are lots of Tier 2 companies that span Microtik, Ubiquiti, TrendNet, Netgear.

In the Tier 2 realm I like and use Ubiquiti Edge Switches which incorporates VLAN / Layer 3 routing others like the UniFi line from Ubiquiti as it offers ease use and integration with their own ecosystem.

Layer 3: A layer 2 switch is fine in a SMB environment like a restaurant / bar. A layer switch 3 provides Fast Switching using dedicated ASIC hardware chips to (forward) routing for Ethernet ports. A router uses software to perform the same (forwarding) or routing vs dedicated hardware. A router can route ethernet, serial, ISDN, and provides features not normally associated with a switch like NAT, IPSEC, Tunneling, Firewall, and services like VPN etc.

Surge Protective Device / TVSS: SPD's should always be installed and deployed in a tiered fashion. Type 1 SPD are installed at the service (meter) entrance. Type 2 SPD's are installed at the service (breaker) panel. Type 3 SPD's are known as Point of Use at the outlet such as surge outlets, surge bars, AVR, UPS. Type 4 SPD's are installed in line before the electrical load such as a washer, dryer, furnace, dishwasher, etc.

You may consider the following brands APC, Eaton, Ditek, CyberPower, Leviton, Siemens, Tripp Lite, Panamax, Hubel, etc.

Grounding: The cornerstone and success of any SPD / TVSS protection system hinges upon the electrical system having a low resistance earth ground below 25 ohms. Whatever the SPD / TVSS can not absorb (sacrifice itself) the rest will be shunted to earth ground via the buildings wiring. Any hardware that has a grounding point on the chassis needs to be grounded to the same single point earth ground.

In a typical business environment like a restaurant / bar installed in a closet as you suggest the only ground will come from the electrical outlet.

Power: All of the equipment should be powered by 20 amp dedicated circuit(s). When the electrician installs (2) four gang outlets in the service closet each should be on the opposite side of the single split phase electrical system. If one leg drops out the other will continue to operate fine. Regardless of that basic thing at hand a AVR UPS must be in service to protect the very expensive and important hardware from voltage sags (brown outs) and micro surge / spikes.

Dirty power is one of the five major contributors of short service life and erratic behavior and damage to electronics.

Cooling / Venting: Serious consideration about how to monitor and cool / vent the service closet needs to be planned and in place. As noted up above dirty power is one of the major killers besides - heat. The installation environment dictates what needs to be done so if its in the cold ass wine cellar that's not a huge issue.

The same isn't true if the service closet is on the same South Facing wall in AZ, CA, TX etc!

This is where reviewing the operating temperature of each device is critical to long term reliability. You won't see a tier 3 X brand show you real test of MTBF or have realistic operating ranges that make sense.

Energy: The client is going to have to pay two bills one for the initial outlay for the purchase. The other is 24.7.365 until the device finally dies so make sure the hardware is as efficient as possible.

Noise: Noise may not be an issue in your location but if it is you better read how many dB's that switch puts out. In a bar nobody cares because the music will always drown it out. In a quiet office environment where people are in a clerical data entry environment that may be hard to endure hearing a jet plane for 8 hours a day.

Lots of information, I'm going to read it carefully, thank you very much

 

[Teken]

Lots of information, I'm going to read it carefully, thank you very much

No worries, you're doing more than 90% of the people who literally just walk into Staples / Best Buy and picks whatever is in isle 22! Sit down with all the decision makers and those who may offer critical insight about the working environment.

The hard conversation is always going to be about money . . .

Nobody wants to hear they have to pay an electrician $500 ~ 1200.XX to run an electrical outlet never mind HVAC cooling. So review the environment, location, and budget accordingly to meet the real world needs of the business. Even if you determine a full HAVC isn't in the budget it doesn't stop you from installing a vented door and exhaust fan.

The business says there's no way they will install any SPD at the service entrance / service panel. Welps, nothing stopping you from installing a surge outlet connected to a Pure Sine Wave UPS.

 

[user8963]

A dedicated router & firewall appliance needs to be installed at the edge of the network along with antivirus scanner.

 

[Teken]

View attachment 109311

Too bad she's still using a demo version . . .

 

[user8963]

Too bad she's still using a demo version . . .

too bad no one can even clean deinstall norton antivirus

 

[Teken]

This is the most effective anti virus in use today in China today - very secure!

 

[user8963]

where did you find this picture of me

 

[Teken]

too bad no one can even clean deinstall norton antivirus

Both McAfee / Norton do not respect the clean uninstall process outlined by Microsoft. Than again AVG and others are similar so can't really complain over one or the other. Kaspersky if wasn't a Russian product would be used more in North America if it wasn't Russian exploited.

 

[Gargoile]

POE Switch:
Surge Protective Device / TVSS: SPD's should always be installed and deployed in a tiered fashion. Type 1 SPD are installed at the service (meter) entrance. Type 2 SPD's are installed at the service (breaker) panel. Type 3 SPD's are known as Point of Use at the outlet such as surge outlets, surge bars, AVR, UPS. Type 4 SPD's are installed in line before the electrical load such as a washer, dryer, furnace, dishwasher, etc.

You may consider the following brands APC, Eaton, Ditek, CyberPower, Leviton, Siemens, Tripp Lite, Panamax, Hubel, etc.

Grounding: The cornerstone and success of any SPD / TVSS protection system hinges upon the electrical system having a low resistance earth ground below 25 ohms. Whatever the SPD / TVSS can not absorb (sacrifice itself) the rest will be shunted to earth ground via the buildings wiring. Any hardware that has a grounding point on the chassis needs to be grounded to the same single point earth ground.

In a typical business environment like a restaurant / bar installed in a closet as you suggest the only ground will come from the electrical outlet.

Power: All of the equipment should be powered by 20 amp dedicated circuit(s). When the electrician installs (2) four gang outlets in the service closet each should be on the opposite side of the single split phase electrical system. If one leg drops out the other will continue to operate fine. Regardless of that basic thing at hand a AVR UPS must be in service to protect the very expensive and important hardware from voltage sags (brown outs) and micro surge / spikes.

Dirty power is one of the five major contributors of short service life and erratic behavior and damage to electronics.

Most people overlook power. Brownouts cause more damage to electronics than power spikes. Get a good pass-through UPS that you can add extra batteries for a longer run time and have your system running when your power goes out. When your power is out is when you need your cameras the most.

 

[Teken]

Most people overlook power. Brownouts cause more damage to electronics than power spikes. Get a good pass-through UPS that you can add extra batteries for a longer run time and have your system running when your power goes out. When your power is out is when you need your cameras the most.

Agreed, this is why selecting the right hardware from the onset which can be expanded is critical to long term success. I have a very small backup system that's slowly being re-deployed.

 

[gabtrillz]

Most people overlook power. Brownouts cause more damage to electronics than power spikes. Get a good pass-through UPS that you can add extra batteries for a longer run time and have your system running when your power goes out. When your power is out is when you need your cameras the most.

My idea was to install an inverter with several batteries for power outages. But not only thinking about the cameras and switches, especially for the lighting.
This inverter does not filter the current. It detects if there is a power cut and automatically activates the inverter with the batteries. Here I wanted to connect the lighting, the computers, and the cameras. Maybe the ice cream fridge too. As I have read it is fast enough not to cause reboots in computers.

Then the question would be... Should I include a separate backup system just for the switches?

 

[user8963]

I would only connect the ice cream fridge..
who needs cctv when you have ice cream..

 

[Teken]

My idea was to install an inverter with several batteries for power outages. But not only thinking about the cameras and switches, especially for the lighting.
This inverter does not filter the current. It detects if there is a power cut and automatically activates the inverter with the batteries. Here I wanted to connect the lighting, the computers, and the cameras. Maybe the ice cream fridge too. As I have read it is fast enough not to cause reboots in computers.

Then the question would be... Should I include a separate backup system just for the switches?

You’ll want to test and validate if the ATS can react and switch over fast enough on the specific hardware on hand. Even some of the most expensive generators have a spool up time before the ATS kicks over to transfer power.

If this is a battery only system connected to an inverter the same applies. As many cheaper & expensive inverters have a 1-2 second transfer time.

This is why having even a small UPS connected helps offset that problem to allow the ATS / inverter to kick in properly without loss of power and potential reboot.

Even though a vast majority of cameras have buffering power supply you’ll want to test out how long said camera can sustain a power drop out.

 

[gabtrillz]

If this is a battery only system connected to an inverter the same applies. As many cheaper & expensive inverters have a 1-2 second transfer time.

Yes.

Ok then I will check an small pass-through UPS, especially to filter the current, avoid voltage drops, and overvoltages.
But just a small one because it's not really going to work like a UPS, at most only that 1-2 seconds.

 

[Teken]

Yes.

Ok then I will check an small pass-through UPS, especially to filter the current, avoid voltage drops, and overvoltages.
But just a small one because it's not really going to work like a UPS, at most only that 1-2 seconds.

Yes, even a small UPS connected in-line will suffice. What model and brand inverter is being used? How much capacity (AH) does the battery pack have?

 

[gabtrillz]

Yes, even a small UPS connected in-line will suffice. What model and brand inverter is being used? How much capacity (AH) does the battery pack have?

Nothing bought yet, we just poured the concrete for the first slab.
If all goes well, the purchase of all the electronics will be at the end of January.
But I want to go one step ahead and have everything studied before then.

For the inverter I had looked for all-in-1 solutions. Inverter + battery charger + transfer switch. With 12 volt batteries connected in parallel.
These all-in-1 don't usually have a lot of power, so the idea was to install 2 or 3.

But nothing decided yet. Any suggestion ?

 

[Teken]

Nothing bought yet, we just poured the concrete for the first slab.
If all goes well, the purchase of all the electronics will be at the end of January.
But I want to go one step ahead and have everything studied before then.

For the inverter I had looked for all-in-1 solutions. Inverter + battery charger + transfer switch. With 12 volt batteries connected in parallel.
These all-in-1 don't usually have a lot of power, so the idea was to install 2 or 3.

But nothing decided yet. Any suggestion ?

That would depend upon how serious you’re and what the long term future goals are for the family. If this is for that one in a blue moon event there are dozens of stand alone portable systems that would fit that need.

If this is more serious due to regular outages like rolling black outs / brown outs of seasonal weather incidents. The most economical and reasonable solution is a whole house generator in what ever capacity you deem appropriate.

If a NG generator isn’t something you can or want to do and a power wall of battery banks is what you’re after. It makes sense to consider units that support solar and generator connectivity.

It makes very little sense to invest large amounts of finances all the while the core backup can’t be connected (tightly integrated) with the two power generation sources of solar / generator.

All of the systems that integrate well with the above run at least 48 VDC. You’ll never find a commercial or upper class battery bank running on 12 VDC anymore. Some brands to review what they offer are Tesla, Generac, Enphase, Midnight Solar, there’s a German brand for the life of me can’t remember.

Regardless, you’ll want to review the capacity of each system as some will shock you as to how little power they can be provide even when chained to their maximum potential. Other considerations is surge current ability to operate with HVAC as some can’t / won’t support such high inrush starting current.

While others offer modular battery additions and others don’t like Tesla. Tesla you have to purchase the entire power wall unit which also leads to cooling.

Some units like Tesla use liquid cooling vs others are fan cooled. Some units are not outdoor rated so if you live in the cold ass North like I do Tesla isn’t on the board as an option. The biggest consideration for any of these so called power walls is if they have any dependency on the cloud!

Any system that must connect to the Internet is complete fail and not worth considering at all. Some must call home at certain intervals or to have advanced features must also be connected to the internet.

A simple timer or schedule should not have to rely on the Internet! If it’s something like weather forecast that’s fine. But load shedding and other basic features should not be locked to the internet.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

OP mentioned retail environment with Points of sale. Does BI have any POS overlay options? Essentially capturing sale summary on screen of camera the records the respective POS drawer