Feasibility of license plate reading at my house

[sakau]

I live on a corner of a kind of busy road and quiet neighborhood street. If possible, I'd like to place a camera that was able to capture license plates of cars coming and going. There is a stop sign, so it should be pretty easy to capture I would think. The issues are that I don't have ethernet out to my mailbox which seems like easily the best location for the camera (see picture). My wifi is okay (not great) out there, but that seems to be my best option. A camera at my front door (location of photograph) would have to contend with greenery and be much further away. I could also in theory add a wireless access point on the outside of my home and that would probably give plenty of signal to the mailbox if I go that route.

I should also note that I want this to tie into the rest of system of cameras which will be POE + 1 wifi doorbell camera that will run Blue Iris.

What would you guys recommend? Thanks in advance.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Keep in mind that effective LPR takes two dedicated cameras positioned to catch plates "coming and going", IE front and/or rear. The cameras need to be zoomed in so that the only thing they see is the width of the roadway and at night, will be running a shutter speed so high that the captures will usually be black other than the lights on the car and the license plate. Have a look at these threads -

New to LPR? Considerations Before You Begin

Thought I would throw together a post on my experiences so far with LPR in an effort to help others that are considering running down that rabbit hole. There are some practical considerations you should know about LPR. I am approaching this from the position of using Blue Iris and Plate...

ipcamtalk.com

LPR

Licence Plate Reader cameras

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Review-Dahua IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E AI Varifocal Bullet

Courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY at Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group And EmpireTech-Andy @ Amazon.com: Price Approximately $220US shipped via DHL...

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[wtimothyholman]

You've got a pretty good "window" in front of your driveway. I'm judging you're about 80 feet from your front porch to that portion of the roadway, which is well within the range of the Dahua -Z12E. The angle is not perfect, but it is certainly within the ability of software like OpenALPR to resolve, or to resolve by eye if you only need license plate capture instead of full-blown LPR.

If you can find a similar window and angle in the opposite direction, then I'd just install two cameras right on your front porch.

 

[looney2ns]

Don't use Wifi.
It wouldn't be that difficult to get an ethernet cable to your mail box.
Two 5442 Turrets would probably suffice mounted on the mail box.
As always, test a proposed location for 24hrs or longer prior to commiting to a permanent install.

 

[sakau]

Don't use Wifi.
It wouldn't be that difficult to get an ethernet cable to your mail box.
Two 5442 Turrets would probably suffice mounted on the mail box.
As always, test a proposed location for 24hrs or longer prior to commiting to a permanent install.

Not that difficult? I think we must have different views about difficult, lol. My network rack is on the lower level on the far corner of the house from the mailbox. It would be like a 200 foot run that would I assume have to be buried or well-hidden through a yard and/or driveway... not to mention get fed back into the home again and through walls. Because my mailbox is only like 10-20 feet from where I would want the license plates captured, I figured there was probably a wifi solution that could work reasonably well. Is this really not the case?


Also, I think I may have confused myself (or maybe I'm still confused) about needing two cameras for license plate reading. I know I said "coming and going" but my intent really was just to capture license plates on the back of cars at the stop sign. Wouldn't one camera suffice for this?

 

[wtimothyholman]

Not that difficult? I think we must have different views about difficult, lol. My network rack is on the lower level on the far corner of the house from the mailbox. It would be like a 200 foot run that would I assume have to be buried or well-hidden through a yard and/or driveway... not to mention get fed back into the home again and through walls. Because my mailbox is only like 10-20 feet from where I would want the license plates captured, I figured there was probably a wifi solution that could work reasonably well. Is this really not the case?

There is no (cheap) WiFi solution for LPR that is going to work well, at least if you're relying on WiFi to deliver a real-time stream into your home. You're talking about 20 fps video at 2 MP from what appears to be 50 or 60 feet from your home; it is far too easy for WiFi to be disrupted or drop out at that range. You might get by with a camera that incorporates continuous time onboard SD storage, with the idea of using WiFi to download a selected video clip, but even that may be frustrating if you have to skim through footage to find what you want.

The other issue is one of power budget. A battery powered WiFi camera will not work for LPR. So if you're going to mount a camera on your mailbox, you'll still need electric wiring to power it. And if you're going to that amount of effort, you might as well run Ethernet cable.

A 200 foot run is not an issue for PoE+ routers. You can buy waterproof cable that can be trenched into the ground with a spade - no conduit will be needed. It's not trivial, but it is certainly workable.

Also, I think I may have confused myself (or maybe I'm still confused) about needing two cameras for license plate reading. I know I said "coming and going" but my intent really was just to capture license plates on the back of cars at the stop sign. Wouldn't one camera suffice for this?

I can promise you that within a month of installing one LPR camera, you'll be installing a second one to capture plates in the opposite direction. All it will take is one "missed" plate, and you'll be kicking yourself for not having the second camera. Of course, if your roadway is a cul-de-sac that forces anyone who drives in to drive out through the same intersection, then you could conceivably get by with one camera, but I'd still recommend a second one. The additional effort and expense of adding the second camera is small compared to the effort and expense of adding the first.

 

[mlapaglia]

My network rack is on the other side of my driveway, so I had to run networking ~180ft through my attic down through the yard to the mailbox. I used a square ended shovel after a heavy rain to bury the lines 12" at a time.

DIY Security Mailbox

The old and busted mailbox at the front of my driveway was leaning forward, rotting, and had paint peeling off of the black, then painted gold, then black again metal. None of the wood was pressure…

mattlapaglia.com

It took a while but I also ran electricity at the same time and put a light on my mailbox
I doubt there are any good wifi battery powered cameras that have the IR emitter output and sensor size to run 1/1000 shutter speed at night.

After a few years the bush will conceal both cameras as it wraps around the mailbox

 

[wittaj]

Wifi is problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to use it through a wifi router. And then you are far enough away that you would not have full signal, and it will slow your whole system down.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes. Now do the same with a wifi camera and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues.

And that doesn't even account for the need for power. Solar there would not cut it unless you go all in, at which point it would be cheaper to run ethernet.

 

[Matthew Craig]

Not that difficult? I think we must have different views about difficult, lol. My network rack is on the lower level on the far corner of the house from the mailbox. It would be like a 200 foot run that would I assume have to be buried or well-hidden through a yard and/or driveway... not to mention get fed back into the home again and through walls. Because my mailbox is only like 10-20 feet from where I would want the license plates captured, I figured there was probably a wifi solution that could work reasonably well. Is this really not the case?


Also, I think I may have confused myself (or maybe I'm still confused) about needing two cameras for license plate reading. I know I said "coming and going" but my intent really was just to capture license plates on the back of cars at the stop sign. Wouldn't one camera suffice for this?

You could attempt using a wireless PTP bridge with products similar to Ubiquiti, that use wireless base stations but are consistent and not actual WIFI SSID APs. Only thing would be that providing power to the remote base station would require 12v Solar or PoE somewhere. Solar would be a tough task on something as small as a mailbox, and PoE or providing power would just be silly if you could then just run an ethernet line.

 

[samplenhold]

It can seem daunting to run cable through the attic, down to the outside and on to the mailbox. But it can be done. See the link below.

LPR Case Study: Scoping, Planning, Proof of Concept, Installation, & Results

Introduction This thread is about my journey into LPR (License Plate Recognition) after having about 18 months of experience with IP cams and having quite a bit of my system finished. I am not an expert on LPR, or IP cameras either. But I have spent a lot of time working with my system and...

ipcamtalk.com

However, there have been successful solar installs of cams. The link below is one of them, but it is not for LPR. Not sure how the solar solution would work out running the IR at night. But you could consider an external IR illuminator mounted at the house where there is a power source available.

Mailbox Camera

A few months ago I was taking out the trash and while walking down the driveway I noticed a car stopping at our mailbox, opening it and driving away. It was dark so I know it was not the rural mail carrier. We live in a rural area and have had occasions of missing mail in the past. We don't have...

ipcamtalk.com

Try and consider alternative locations for the cam. Start by not considering how to get ethernet cable there, but where would an LPR cam work? ID those locations and THEN think about getting the cable to the cam. Test ideas with a DSLR from the locations. The biggest issue it seems in your case will be the angle. Just how much is the plate foreshortened? Are you hoping to use some type of auto ID of the plate number and storage in a database? Or are you content to just have the video to look back upon if there is an issue? That might help decide just how much foreshortening you are willing to live with.

EDIT: I did not provide the Amazon link in the above post. I also can not see it on edit so I can't remove it. Why is that happening?

 

[biggen]

How are you doing to power a wifi camera at the mailbox? Do you have power there?

 

[sakau]

How are you doing to power a wifi camera at the mailbox? Do you have power there?

I was planning on using something with batteries, but I have been talked in to just running the darn ethernet cables. I'm still not exactly sure how to do it, but I will read up from the posts that have been suggested to me and perhaps cross this bridge another day as it isn't SUPER urgent.

 

[sakau]

Try and consider alternative locations for the cam. Start by not considering how to get ethernet cable there, but where would an LPR cam work? ID those locations and THEN think about getting the cable to the cam. Test ideas with a DSLR from the locations. The biggest issue it seems in your case will be the angle. Just how much is the plate foreshortened? Are you hoping to use some type of auto ID of the plate number and storage in a database? Or are you content to just have the video to look back upon if there is an issue? That might help decide just how much foreshortening you are willing to live with.

Well, about the only place that I imagine it would work is at my mailbox. It would be the closest to the stopped cars (less than 25 feet behind the stop sign) , approximately the same level as the license plates, and not much of an angle.

If I were to put the camera anywhere on the front of my home, it would be far away, at a worse angle, and have trees in the way.

I don't have a DSLR camera to test with.

As for plate identification, originally I was thinking just be able to look back on past footage... but given that it seems possible to have software process the images and keep all kinds of data, I may go ahead and opt for that. If I have to run the cables out there anyway, I might as well get a high quality solution, huh?

 

[sebastiantombs]

I'd get a square toe, short handle, shovel if you don't already have one. One that is straight and flat, no side flanges. I'd use that to run the cable along the sidewalk and driveway edge, outside edge of the sidewalk and left side (as viewed in your photo) by going straight down tight to the sidewalk and driveway, then levering out away from the sidewalk and drive way. A paint stir stick or short piece of wide lattice could be used to tuck the cable as you go. Just use foot pressure to close up the slit you make. While it won't be fast, it's not all that hard to do.

 

[wittaj]

While the angle from the house isn't ideal, you would be surprised how much angle you can get away with.

Get the 5241-Z12E and test rig it and be surprised. If it doesn't work out, you can always repurpose it to get clean side profile video of cars as night, which is needed because for LPR, your image will be black except for head/tail lights and the plate.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Very few people have enough light to run color at night and looking at that image I think you are in that boat as well.

Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH to demonstrate what the image should look like when configured properly. This is 175 feet from my camera at about a 50 degree angle:

But as @sebastiantombs suggested, if you decide to run cable to the mailbox, it isn't as difficult as one thinks. Especially if you lay it along the edge of the driveway.

 

[TVille]

What @wittaj said. His, and other comments helped me get mine setup and running. The 12ZE is a great camera, and is the workhorse on here for LPR. I'm running about 110', 40 degrees horizontal, and about 30 degrees vertical to capture license plates. Without a lot of fine tuning, I get 90% or better of the plates. My setup struggles with the paper plates which don't reflect nearly as much. Get the 12ZE and try it, you will be surprised!

 

[biggen]

I was planning on using something with batteries, but I have been talked in to just running the darn ethernet cables. I'm still not exactly sure how to do it, but I will read up from the posts that have been suggested to me and perhaps cross this bridge another day as it isn't SUPER urgent.

You would need a large solar panel and large battery. Probably cost at least $500 just in equipment...

Run the ethernet.

 

[looney2ns]

I'd get a square toe, short handle, shovel if you don't already have one. One that is straight and flat, no side flanges. I'd use that to run the cable along the sidewalk and driveway edge, outside edge of the sidewalk and left side (as viewed in your photo) by going straight down tight to the sidewalk and driveway, then levering out away from the sidewalk and drive way. A paint stir stick or short piece of wide lattice could be used to tuck the cable as you go. Just use foot pressure to close up the slit you make. While it won't be fast, it's not all that hard to do.

Exactly this, after a good rain it's easy peasy. I've ran cable across lawns with that same method, and you could not tell I was there when I was finished. No grass to replant, nada.
Use good bury rated cable. I've buried 1/2" PVC conduit with the same method.