Hardware for Tennis Match video capture

[TennisCams]

I've got an IPCam application that's a bit different. Will it work?

1) I have 8 tennis courts, each with an IP camera running 1080p60. Yes, that's 60 fps, since in tennis the frame rate is hugely important.
2) I want to run the 8 streams into a direct-to-disk recorder at full 1080p60 using H.264. So far, so good.
3) The hard part: I want to show the 8 streams on 8 TV's in my lobby. I want the full resolution and rate. I'm worried this will overload the BI UI.
3a) I think I need the Blue Iris software with one window in each of my 8 video ports. All of the wiki pages tell me that running the UI at full res is a bad idea and that substreams are the way to relieve the load. For my application, having full resolution and frame rate, rather than substreams, is the point.

1080p60 = 124 MP, 8 of them puts me at 992 MP.

I'm not doing any triggering, it's full-time recording to disk.

If I buy @bp2008's rule-of-thumb system, say 8 core + HT on a good 4-channel memory subsystem, am I ok?

Thanks,
David

 

[DsineR]

One option:
Ensure your cams are capable of multiple steams at 1080p60.
Send one stream to your BI PC, and a 2nd stream to a (stand-alone) Encoder at each TV - check the specs of the selected Encoder for 1080p60 in/out.
Use the HDMI output of the Encoder to the TV.

 

[DsineR]

One option:
Ensure your cams are capable of multiple steams at 1080p60.
Send one stream to your BI PC, and a 2nd stream to a (stand-alone) Encoder at each TV - check the specs of the selected Encoder for 1080p60 in/out.
Use the HDMI output of the Encoder to the TV.

Oops! Meant Decoder, not Encoder.

 

[wittaj]

Shutter speed will be a bigger issue with high speed action than FPS, so keep that in mind as well. A 1/2000 shutter at 30 FPS will look better than a 1/30 shutter at 60 FPS.

Consider running the web GUI for each camera showing to each TV instead of thru BI?

Do you need to record - if not then just go with web GUI to display.

I would suggest buying one camera and trying first before investing - these are not TV cameras and I bet at the field of view you would get with these cameras and what you want to accomplish, it will not work even at a high shutter and 60 FPS. I suspect with these cams, you will not see an appreciable difference between running 60 FPS and a slower FPS at the distance the cams would be from the action. Even the best sensor on one of these cams is small compared to a TV camera.

 

[Mike A.]

Even the best sensor on one of these cams is small compared to a TV camera.

And you still have relatively poor little lenses and image processing (unless maybe you go with some very expensive cams).

 

[TennisCams]

So many good thoughts! Some answers

@DsineR - I thought about that approach. Seems that getting decoding at the TV is a pain. I can buy standalone decoders for about $80 each TV, and then attach a stream to each one and hope that the whole system remembers the configuration so that when we turn everything off at night and back on the TV's will tune to the right port and the decoders will connect to the right stream. I guess it's always a fallback, too, if I can't get a server PC with 8 hdmi out ports to work.

@wittaj - Shutter speed not so bad. I've tested the cameras. Axis P1375 looks pretty good at 1/500th, which gives that perfect tradeoff of brightness (slower shutter) and sharpness (faster shutter). I've included two sample frames, one at 1/250th and one at 1/500th. The 1/250th you can see that the racket is blurry and the ball is too, while at 1/500th both are sharp but the scene is still bright enough. In both frames it is the same tennis player serving as close to as identically as he could. The 1375 has a 1/2.8" sensor, not terribly big but good enough for 1080p. FOV is a giant problem, probably 95% of the cameras are too narrow. Axis P1375 is 124 degrees wide horizontally and 65 vertically, it's wide enough. Many of the box cams offer swappable lenses, it's considerably more expensive. The Axis Q3517-LV has a really nice 1/1.8" sensor which was noticeably better, but it's not wide enough (96 degree horizontal). Know any wide big sensor cams? One problem is that bigger sensors are actually tougher to get wide FOV on, which is why they are so rare.

IMHO the smoothness at 60 fps v 30 fps is noticeable, even for non-camera-nerds watching it.

What do you mean by "run the web GUI for each camera showing to each TV instead of through BI"?

Yes, I need to record the video. My players want to take their matches home with them and watch in 1080p60. I'm pretty sure that the direct-to-disk part of BI will do fine with 8x1080p60 cams. That path is one that lots of people run. It's the "I want 1080p60 preview windows" that is the one I see everybody suggesting I use substreams for it.

@Mike A - All true. But the lens/sensors available are good enough. For hoots I took my Sony a7riii up there and put a wide prime on it and shot some video. Quality was way better to my eye but when I showed it to people they weren't blown away.

Any guesses as to whether BI can run 8 preview windows at 1080p60 on a high-end-but-consumer-grade Intel chip on a quad-channel motherboard?

 

[bradner]

What do you mean by "run the web GUI for each camera showing to each TV instead of through BI"?

I think he means If the TV's are internet capable, have the tv log into the cam's main feed via it's IP address using the TV's web browser, I think.... This may not be as "pro" as you'd like but i use Fire Sticks to stream BI feeds to different TV's

 

[wittaj]

Wow - that is actually better than I thought, but the Axis cams are usually a lot more expensive and hopefully better quality.

I would assume you can log into the camera directly to change the shutter speed and then you probably have the ability to view the camera feed right from that IP address and from the camera directly instead of running it through BI. Personally I think my video feeds from the cameras directly look better than watching them through BI, but I know others on here have said there is no difference in theirs. It may be because I am using remote desktop to view, but it was just a thought if you didn't need a recording.

 

[DsineR]

@DsineR - I thought about that approach. Seems that getting decoding at the TV is a pain. I can buy standalone decoders for about $80 each TV, and then attach a stream to each one and hope that the whole system remembers the configuration so that when we turn everything off at night and back on the TV's will tune to the right port and the decoders will connect to the right stream. I guess it's always a fallback, too, if I can't get a server PC with 8 hdmi out ports to work.

The decoder you posted will not work for your req's, it is composite video only & not 1080p60.
A decent decoder will not 'lose it's memory or stream string'. Same possibility of a camera losing it's setting, it's possible but rare.
Smart TVs can be set on a daily power on/off timer, and set with a power on specified input and/or channel.
Assuming the TVs are running all day, every day, recommend a 'pro-sumer' grade TV rated for longer run times, brighter image, less image retention - especially when fixed on a tennis court with bright white boarders.

 

[SyconsciousAu]

One problem is that bigger sensors are actually tougher to get wide FOV on, which is why they are so rare.

Not sure where you are getting this info from. The larger sensors have a naturally wider field of view. Another 10 Degrees in the example below.

Camera	IPC-HDW5442TM-ASE
Image Sensor	1/1.8” 4Megapixel progressive scan CMOS
Max. Resolution	2688 (H) × 1520 (V)
Focal Length	2.8 mm, 3.6 mm, 6.0 mm
Max. Aperture	F1.6
Angle of View	H: 113°, V: 60°/H: 89°, V: 48°/H: 56°, V: 31°
Aperture Type	Fixed
Close Focus Distance	1.3 m (4.27 ft)/1.9 m (6.23 ft)/3.8 m (12.47 ft)

VS

Camera	IPC-HDW3441TM-AS
Image Sensor	1/3” 4Megapixel progressive CMOS
Lens
Lens Type	Fixed focal
Mount Type	M12
Focal Length	2.8 mm; 3.6 mm; 6 mm
Max. Aperture	F1.6
Field of View	2.8 mm: Horizontal:103°; vertical: 55°; diagonal: 122° 3.6 mm: Horizontal:84°; vertical: 45° ; diagonal: 100° 6 mm: Horizontal:52°; vertical: 28°; diagonal: 61°

 

[brianegge]

You could have a Raspberry Pi 4 for each monitor, which is not much different than a dedicated hardware decoder, except of course, you could run video analytics with the spare cpu cycles.

 

[TennisCams]

I think he means If the TV's are internet capable, have the tv log into the cam's main feed via it's IP address using the TV's web browser, I think.... This may not be as "pro" as you'd like but i use Fire Sticks to stream BI feeds to different TV's

Right - I'm worried that I'd either need a bunch of

Not sure where you are getting this info from. The larger sensors have a naturally wider field of view. Another 10 Degrees in the example below.

Camera	IPC-HDW5442TM-ASE
Image Sensor	1/1.8” 4Megapixel progressive scan CMOS
Max. Resolution	2688 (H) × 1520 (V)
Focal Length	2.8 mm, 3.6 mm, 6.0 mm
Max. Aperture	F1.6
Angle of View	H: 113°, V: 60°/H: 89°, V: 48°/H: 56°, V: 31°
Aperture Type	Fixed
Close Focus Distance	1.3 m (4.27 ft)/1.9 m (6.23 ft)/3.8 m (12.47 ft)

VS

Camera	IPC-HDW3441TM-AS
Image Sensor	1/3” 4Megapixel progressive CMOS
Lens
Lens Type	Fixed focal
Mount Type	M12
Focal Length	2.8 mm; 3.6 mm; 6 mm
Max. Aperture	F1.6
Field of View	2.8 mm: Horizontal:103°; vertical: 55°; diagonal: 122° 3.6 mm: Horizontal:84°; vertical: 45° ; diagonal: 100° 6 mm: Horizontal:52°; vertical: 28°; diagonal: 61°

The 5442 has a great FOV, very interesting.1080p60, too. The 3441 has a smaller sensor and is narrower, but the sensor-to-lens distance might be different between the two. The 5442 is described as "Board-In" mount, while the 3441 is "M12". M12 is a standard thread, but wikipedia says "S-mount [e.g. M12] lenses do not have a flange and therefore there is no fixed lens to sensor distance." The 5442 is a single fixed lens, which may mean that Dahua had an easier time making a very short flange distance and hence wider FOV. Anyway, great find! Notice that of all of the variables you can select on the Dahua site, FOV isn't one of them!

 

[TennisCams]

You could have a Raspberry Pi 4 for each monitor, which is not much different than a dedicated hardware decoder, except of course, you could run video analytics with the spare cpu cycles.

Interesting - since the latest Pi does two monitors, I could buy 4 and run ethernet to them, set them up as full-frame decoders. I've never tried to configure a Pi as a headless decoder. Easy?

 

[brianegge]

I've never tried to configure a Pi as a headless decoder. Easy?

Specs say it can do one hardware stream, decoding 1080p60. Ymmv for a second screen. Various wrappers exist around omxplayer. I’m not running this setup.

GitHub - SvenVD/rpisurv: Raspberry Pi surveillance

Raspberry Pi surveillance. Contribute to SvenVD/rpisurv development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[TennisCams]

Specs say it can do one hardware stream, decoding 1080p60. Ymmv for a second screen. Various wrappers exist around omxplayer. I’m not running this setup.

Sounds like a great solution. Derive 8 1080p60 streams straight from the cameras, put a Pi on each TV and configure the Pi to decode one stream into one display. Separately, feed that same 1080p60 stream into the BI server and direct-to-disk it. No need to configure a monster computer that can do 8x monitor decodes. Plus, I can derive a substream and use that on the server to set up live streaming across the internet at a much lower frame size/rate for people to watch at home or in car. With covid, we can't let the spectators (e.g. parents) into the club right to watch their kids play, they really really want that local video.

 

[Old Timer]

You could modulate it up to cable channels and run a coax to all tv's, then use the tuners to pick the channel.

What does rf modulator do? Do I need it? Where to buy - Thor Broadcast

Basic knowledge about modulators modulators. What is it, how it works and examples of use. If you need a device to convert voice and data signal into a form that can be transmitted then you need a RF modulator

thorbroadcast.com

What does rf modulator do? Do I need it? Where to buy - Thor Broadcast

Basic knowledge about modulators modulators. What is it, how it works and examples of use. If you need a device to convert voice and data signal into a form that can be transmitted then you need a RF modulator

thorbroadcast.com

Sit down before you ask the price! it is not cheap, but is quality equipment. The standard you want for US tv's will be ATSC .
They are good to work with you and figure out what is the best model for your use. You must tell them what resolution and FPS you need.

These can not be mixed with an over the air antenna, you will transmit the signal out the antenna and get in big trouble!!!

 

[Old Timer]

This explains the operation a little better. Scroll down to the pictures.

HDMI Multiplexer over Coax, Hdmi to CATV to Hdmi - Thor Broadcast

This Unit has 12 HDMI inputs which are beeing converted to CABLE TV Channels for easy HD video distribusion over COAX. In addition it also has IPTV output for IP Network Multicast

thorbroadcast.com

Think about the DVD player as the camera you would use for an input.
You can place 4 1090p video streams on one RF channel, but if you want 4k, you can only put one video stream on each RF channel.