Need advise installing 30 x 3MP camera

[normel]

Hello guys, i need some advise on the following:

I am going to install 30pc of a 2332 exir model,with 7732 model nvr. The nvr has no poe output. Last time i had pauses in the live view on a tv , connected directly to the NVR. This installation was done by connecting a switch to the router.. another switch to that switch, and so 1 more.. So actually, in order to make the installation easier, i had placed 3 switch all around, to make the cabling easier. Somehow, it gave delay on video when i was watching full screen. As i disconnected all cameras, and only connected 4 camera's , it was smooth..So seemed like a network Issue. All cameras were set to 1080p, 25fps , 4000kbps. Setting to smooth did not help, so i need help on this new installation..

Will the delay less when i connect all cameras to a big switch ( 48 ports ) in stead of spreading?
I was also thinking about placing a gigabit router, to give the network more space , but its useless because the camera only supports max 100mbps.. am i right?

Thanks in advance ! I appreciatie any help/tips

 

[pozzello]

30cams @ 4Mbps = 120Mbps, which will oversaturate a 100Mbps link, so YES, you need a gigabit switch, or at least a gigabit uplink to your NVR...

 

[nejakejnick]

I think that one small gigabit switch/router connected to several 100mbit switches and PC/NVR should work fine.

But as you experienced before, a saturated line can cause lags (it would be interesting to know the exact number of cameras which made the lag noticeable). So the safest thing would be to use gigabit everywhere, or at least where you would expect to use more than lets say 50Mbps on the line - and in the worst case, you would just replace the 100mbit switch with a gigabit switch.

 

[normel]

Definitely not the best picture, but i have tried to give a better view of the situation. The RED line are the connections beween switches, black lines go to camera.
A 100mb switch is connected to the Draytek main modem/router. From there another same switch is connected, and from that one a Gigabit switch is connected. The nvr is connected to switch A


Pozello write.. 30x4mbps= 120mbps, so overaturate, but that 30x 4 is split up over switches. so its not just 1 device carrying all.
Second thing is that since the nvr and cameras support max 10M / 100M, the gigabit function wont have any function. It will operate at same speed like switch a and b am i right?
even if it has, the fact that it is connected to a 100mb switch, will kill the gigabit.

Is it possible to login to switch or modem, and see what bandwith is used ?

 

[nejakejnick]

Why did you not paint the NVR into the picture?

Your NVR supports gigabit, and according to your picture, all those switches need to support gigabit, otherwise it won't work very well.

but that 30x 4 is split up over switches. so its not just 1 device carrying all

It is one cable carrying it all to the NVR, that means that switch A must be gigabit. But B->A connection will carry a lot of data too, so it should be also gigabit.

You can buy expensive managed switches with administration interface, but even a cheap non-managed switches have led indicators of the negotiationed speed of each line (at least Netgear does).

 

[pozzello]

of course no single cam needs a gigabit connection, but you're aggregating many cams onto
the links between your switches (and the link from switch to NVR) and maxing them out...

All 30 cams are feeding into the NVR via a single 100 mbps link. No way is that a big enuf pipe. Start by replacing switch A with a gigabit switch.

Then, switch C has 16 cams + switch B has 4 cams => 20 cams @ 4Mbps is ~80Mbps on the 100Mbs link between switch B and switch A.
A 100Mbps link starts having collisions and re-transmissions (leading to lags & dropouts) around 75% utilization, so you's also benefit by
replacing switch B with a gigabit switch.

 

[normel]

Good tip.. i should try that. The owner also called me, because his own network with PC's etc began to act weird. After shutting down the NVR it was over
The nvr has 2 network interfaces. Maybe i should use them both also , so the network, and internet are seperated.

 

[dalepa]

I would just use several 4-8 Gbit POE switches and don't worry about overrunning 100mbit.

 

[hook3m]

Good tip.. i should try that. The owner also called me, because his own network with PC's etc began to act weird. After shutting down the NVR it was over
The nvr has 2 network interfaces. Maybe i should use them both also , so the network, and internet are seperated.

Now that we know you're also running data on the same network changes a lot. There is also a huge issue with your network design. Switches should not be daisy chained together like you have them. I updated your diagram on how the cabling should be setup.

 

[normel]

Why directly to 16ch switch? It should not matter what switch is connected to the modem since its all gigabit its ok right ?

 

[hook3m]

Why directly to 16ch switch? It should not matter what switch is connected to the modem since its all gigabit its ok right ?

It all depends on how many devices you have connected to each switch and the flow of data.

Which switch is your NVR connected to? If you NVR is connected to your Draytek it's NOT going to work as you diagram says the router is 100MB. It like squeezing a golf ball through a garden hose. You have 30 camera streams plus PC traffic trying to funnel through one 100MB link. 100MB isn't enough for 30 cameras alone. By setting it the way I showed you the only traffic that goes to the router is internet traffic and no links get saturated. Camera traffic does not need to hit the router unless you are trying to view the cams remotely.

Edit: I Just noticed my original post contains 2 diagrams. Right after I posted it I realized the Draytek is only 100MB and I edited my post. For some reason the first one didn't get removed. The diagram in the gray box "attached thumbnail" is incorrect. This is the correct diagram:

 

[nejakejnick]

Why directly to 16ch switch? It should not matter what switch is connected to the modem since its all gigabit its ok right ?

Yep, I do not think it matters at all, as long as all switches are gigabit.

 

[bp2008]

Now that we know you're also running data on the same network changes a lot. There is also a huge issue with your network design. Switches should not be daisy chained together like you have them. I updated your diagram on how the cabling should be setup.

This isn't some tech business that needs optimal network performance. This is just a guy's house. Daisy chained switches are not a huge issue. The only significant problem with the originally shown network is that the switches are 100 Mbps speed. If switches A and B are upgraded to gigabit speed (e.g. using what dalepa linked), then performance should improve to acceptable levels. I would also upgrade switch C to something with a gigabit uplink port but it may not be entirely necessary.

My own home network performs extremely well despite an inefficient layout consisting of many daisy chained switches.



In fact since creating this map I have shifted my network gear and NVR to the opposite corner of the bedroom and added another switch to the system, so the bulk of my camera traffic now flows through four switches before reaching my NVR. Again, no problems since I use gigabit switches and good cables.

A few years ago I posted some diagrams on another forum which might be helpful to the OP and anyone struggling to understand poor network performance: http://www.cam-it.org/index.php?topic=5684.msg31486#msg31486

 

[pal251]

I don't install cameras on the same network as clients computer network unless they ask for it. 30 cameras would definitely ruin a 100mb network especially if there are pcs on it also

 

[normel]

Thanks all for the information! i think i have learned a lot more now. I was thinking a gigabit sould have no effect, since the cameras dont support Gigabit..
Unfortunately switch a and b are Poe switches, and i have no gigabit poe switch now. So i will start with connecting the Router with the Gigabit switch, from there 1 cable to A, another to B.
NVR will be connected too Gigabit switch too.
Otherways i could try the 2nd network port of the nvr, so the internet and camera network will be seperated/
Thanks again!

 

[MR2]

Tell your friend to upgrade his entire network... who runs everything on 100mbit these days!

 

[normel]

i am going to this location tomorrow.unfortunately i could not buy 2x giga switches to replace a and b.
so what i will try is.as you suggested..from router cable to giga 16ch. from there 1 to nvr. 1 to switch a and 1 to switch b.( which are 100mb )
right now the a and b switches are connected already together but as i understand i have to connect both to giga and not each other in order to keep reduce latency.
am i correct ?

 

[MR2]

unfortunately i could not buy 2x giga switches to replace a and b

You should not be buying it.. whom-ever owns the business should.

 

[MR2]

you just need the switch's that the Cam's connect to, to have a gigabit uplink to the NVR/DVR... but even then with a lot of cam's you might still have pausing due to the DVR speed...

I assume you've done cam deployments previously?

do the Hik NVR's give you a CPU util figure so you can see if you just need to make a different view or something?