One and done camera solutions for store security?

[Matto1111]

Hey all,

Looking for 2 solutions for a small tobacco shop.

We have a problem with thieves. Yesterday was the last straw that convinced us that our Night Owl system is doomed to the scrap heap.

We have two cameras in the humidor, and caught a guy shoving cigars in his pockets. The cameras are ceiling mounted and have enough resolution to show him stuffing SOMETHING into his pockets, but not enough to show exactly what it was. Furthermore, our front door camera or register camera couldn't get a clear enough shot of his face to print a picture for our Wall Of Shame.

We need a static camera that we can position near the front door that will automatically snap high-res stills of people's faces as they enter, and a system of 8 security cams that have a good coverage but massive resolution to be able to zoom in and see action after the fact. I don't want to interpret grainy low-res videos, I want to see BAR CODES as they go into the pocket.

As it is now, a simple hat can foil our cameras, as it shades the face and if they never look up into the camera, we have squat.

Preferably something that doesn't require subscriptions, and can be set up and run by newbs with little trouble. Any suggestions?

 

[wittaj]

Welcome!

Sorry to hear about that.

Sadly these cameras are just not that good yet to be able to read barcodes, even under ideal conditions.

We have had businesses coming here wanting to read serial numbers off dollars and someone was wanting to be able to read barcodes off of bags of different types of landscaping materials. Let me see if I can find those threads.

And with a perp trying to steal it, no way will you get that clean of a shot.

Digital zoom after the fact only works in the movies and on TV. They do not work well in real life. You may get by with a little but not much.

Any of these systems worth anything are not plug-n-play.

 

[bigredfish]

^^^
+1


And how well lit is this store? ALL cameras need adequate light

 

[samplenhold]

As far as a hat killing your shot, try placing one at knee level pointed up towards the face. Here is an example.

 

[Revo2Maxx]

Well where I buy my Cigars and Pipe Tobacco the store has a camera that I am guessing was for Face Detection seeing I am 6'1" and it is at eye level to me on the Humidor walk-in door frame. Been buying cigars for almost 40 years and never even thought about stealing one.. What is wrong with people these days..

Off the top of my head if I was going to do something like this, I would use an Amcrest IP8M-2779EW-AI camera for face detection and recognition. Setup to a NVR with ability to alert the clerk when a known bad actor enters. Then a mix of other cameras for overall observation of the store and depending on where the door is in relation to the layout I might even do a second face detection cameras at the exit of the store just to make sure all that came in and left where able to be recorded clearly..

 

[Matto1111]

Welcome!

Sorry to hear about that.

Sadly these cameras are just not that good yet to be able to read barcodes, even under ideal conditions.

We have had businesses coming here wanting to read serial numbers off dollars and someone was wanting to be able to read barcodes off of bags of different types of landscaping materials. Let me see if I can find those threads.

And with a perp trying to steal it, no way will you get that clean of a shot.

Digital zoom after the fact only works in the movies and on TV. They do not work well in real life. You may get by with a little but not much.

Any of these systems worth anything are not plug-n-play.

Thanks for the reply. I was being facetious about the barcodes. I just need enough resolution to be able to see how many cigars were in a box before someone stuck his paws into it and after, and a clear shot of him stuffing it in his pocket.

Sadly, it was all I could do to install the system we have. I was hoping by this time a Simplifisafe or Arlo has come up with a passable system that had face recognition and good resolution. I'm not above adding some stand-alone cameras, particularly one that I could post by the front door that would happily snap photos all day long of anyone that came through the door. If it could recognize people who we have flagged as thieves and alert us, that would REALLY be useful.

 

[Matto1111]

^^^
+1


And how well lit is this store? ALL cameras need adequate light

That was one of the first things we did in the renovation we did a couple years ago. LED drop-ceiling lights are great to replace the old T-12 monstrosities!

 

[Matto1111]

As far as a hat killing your shot, try placing one at knee level pointed up towards the face. Here is an example.

Good point.

 

[Matto1111]

Well where I buy my Cigars and Pipe Tobacco the store has a camera that I am guessing was for Face Detection seeing I am 6'1" and it is at eye level to me on the Humidor walk-in door frame. Been buying cigars for almost 40 years and never even thought about stealing one.. What is wrong with people these days..

Off the top of my head if I was going to do something like this, I would use an Amcrest IP8M-2779EW-AI camera for face detection and recognition. Setup to a NVR with ability to alert the clerk when a known bad actor enters. Then a mix of other cameras for overall observation of the store and depending on where the door is in relation to the layout I might even do a second face detection cameras at the exit of the store just to make sure all that came in and left where able to be recorded clearly..

Ooh, I like this. I like it a lot. If our system could recognize people we have marked as undesirable and alert us with an audible sound when they came in, we could hover over them like helicopter clerks and generally make it impossible to steal, and ring them up for the stuff they stole last time. Any suggestions for the NVR that someone with average tech skills could install, operate and maintain?

 

[wittaj]

Yeah it will be awhile before the arlo's of the world get to that level LOL.

Many of us here wouldn't recommend that Amcrest IP8M-2779EW-AI as it shoves 8MP on a sensor designed for 2MP, so the processor will be overworked trying to push 8MP through.

Now in a well-lit store you might get by with it, but most of us would recommend a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio, which would be anything in green:




Most of us here would recommend the Dahua OEM 5442 series (54IR) coupled with the 5xxx series NVR.

A trusted member here sells Dahua OEM (pay less without the logo) on Amazon, his website, or DM. This would be a good starter kit with 4 varifocal cameras:

EmpireTech Kit3 8/16-Camera Capable NVR System with IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3 1/

EmpireTech Kit3 is a safe and reliable NVR and Camera Security System. Free choice of NVR and camera models. Easily design a smart home.

empiretech01.com

Keep in mind that most of us have found that facial identification is more gimmicky and novelty than anything else. If you have to put in 5 or 10 or 15 or 35 pictures or more of yourself in the system for it to recognize it is you...then you shouldn't expect much.... My success rate was under 5% so I moved on to other things LOL. YMMV

It can work in certain situations like a business that requires everyone to stop in front of the camera and the camera is at head height. Outside of that, the percentage of being accurate is probably not going to be super high. You will get a lot of false "confirmations" doing a search.

Someone here posted once how horrible it was inside his house identifying his neighbors and others as him. Another guy his kids and wife were being tagged as him inside the house.

Unless you spend the big bucks that casinos and airports have LOL.

Heck even in ideal situations like a business with the camera at ideal height and optimal lighting it fails....

What do you think of Dahua's "Uyghur Warnings"?

But it would at least alert you to potentials and yours should have a higher success rate than in a residential setting.

 

[biggen]

All good advice in this thread. I have a camera pointed right on the front door of my business. I have it zoomed in tight so I get people as they walk in from their waist to the top of the their head. Makes it easy when police need to see a face (used it several times for this already pressing charges for shoplifting and grand theft).


You will need to identify where you have blind spots and add cameras. I'm up to 20 cams in my 7500sqft building. Thee of those are outside (one for LPR duty and the other two for parking lot overwatch).

 

[Revo2Maxx]

Yeah maybe not the greatest sensor to MP out there but as I said if it was me. Seeing I own the camera already going by what I know works well in a well lit area and well suited for a camera on the door frame at 6 feet or so.. Yeah I am sure there is much better cameras.. I mean I have some better cameras but they are bullet style and not one that I would think would fit well on the door of a Humidor.. Plus even on my 4216-E1 with other Ai enabled the face detection works well in well let area with more data then my camera that cost more then 2x the cost and sure is 4mp with 1/1.8" sensor but not something that I would want sticking out in the middle of my Store.. Plus think my other 1/1.8" cameras are just over sized for face height install in a store..

 

[Flintstone61]

I think you would have less false triggers, and quicker capture reviews with an AI capable "IVS camera, Anything that saves time scrubbing thru video is my friend.
I have a few Amcrest 1179ew's and they are lacking the IVS feature that really cut my false positives by 70% on my other cams.
If Amcrest has an AI camera with IVS , an indoor light controlled setting that could work.
You might get a better photon gathering with a bigger sensor on the Dahua or Empire tech type cams.

 

[Matto1111]

Let me describe our business to provide some context.

We operate out of a 850sqft commercial slot in a strip mall, so we should be able to operate with the 8 cameras we have, but the problem is the focal length and resolution. In the humidor, we have 2 cameras, and I have no idea how or why both cameras can both have simultaneously not enough coverage, and yet not enough range. In one end of the humidor, the camera can't see a wide enough coverage to see all that side's shelves from the 8 foot ceiling, not enough clarity to be able to clearly see the inventory on the shelves, and yet not enough range to be able to tell what's going on at the other end. The humidor is only 20 feet by 7 feet, so you'd figure two would cover it.

The store is a fairly small space, and I think 8 cameras should cover it, but sadly, the existing system needs a serious upgrade to be able to do what we need. I'm hoping for something with a wider view, more resolution to give more ability to digitally zoom within reason, and still remain fairly user-serviceable. I think maybe a more intelligent mounting plan, with eye-level cameras to isolate faces and high-mount cameras to catch action, which I will have to ponder. Would that EmpireTech kit fit the bill? Are there other options that would give a better mix of features?

 

[Revo2Maxx]

Not my store but here is an idea.. IF this was my store and Humidor and I wanted to capture and this is guessing the door placement in center of the 20 foot wide path and I am sure might not be. But most humidors I visit the door is in the middle.. Personally I would use IPC-EBW81242-AS-S2 on the center of the Ceiling. At the area of the door at about 6 to 7 feet high I would use IPC-HDW5442TM-AS-LED to capture faces.. For an NVR I would use DHI-NVR5216-16P-E1 or better like the NVR-5216-16P-I.. There is a cheaper 5mp fisheye camera, not as good of sensor so that is why I think the 12mp would be a better option.. Trying to cover 140 sqft humidor with 2 cameras clearly isn't always that easy.

Then setup the fish eye camera as 4 virtual cameras using the NVRs dewarping feature, and the 5442 capture and store faces in a database that is filled with bad actors to help keep an eye on your humidor.. I would setup the DMSS app on a phone that is used in Store for alerts to know when a bad actor has shown up and this can help alert someone at the front counter and able to then focus on what is going on in the Humidor at that time.. I mean some of the humidors I visit are with nice sticks and low volume and others have higher volume in store but normally humidor is limited to 2 or 4 people and if there is to much going on in the store it might be easy to over look what someone is doing in the humidor..

Personally I don't like the idea of having only face detection at the inside of the Humidor.. I think with correctly placed face detection camera outside of the humidor is better because the humidors that I visit have Humidity Generators that might easily cover the captured area of unwanted mist as they enter into the humidor camera capture area..

There are many different factors and really hard to say what one should or shouldn't do to help protect your or the owners investment.. Depending on where your camera is placed you would want to pick the right lens. For me with it in the humidor I would go with 6mm, outside I would go with maybe 3.6mm options..

Another option, 3 cameras inside the humidor one in the center of the long wall, and the other 2 in the center of the 2 shorter walls.. Then using the 16P-I has upto 4ch face, 24 faces a second.. Would be really hard to miss a face that way.. Also with that setup should make it so there is no blind spots. That is why I mentioned the Fish eye as it will make it so it could see the whole space with no blind spots..