PTZ425DB-AT Opinions

Sir V Lance

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Hi all.

Wondering what folks think about the PTZ425DB-AT from EmpireTech. It looks like it has a rich set of features, including 25X zoom, auto tracking, and it seems reasonably priced. However, it sort of violates the "rule of thumb" for pixel density to sensor size, being that it hosts 4MP on a 1/2.8 sensor. Is this a show stopper? Or do the other features at this price point make it a reasonable choice? I realize it will be lacking night time performance, especially with fast motion. Will its half-dozen IR illuminators somewhat compensate for this?

Thanks.
 

wittaj

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You should only get this if the price and smaller form factor are your main criteria and you are willing to sacrifice some performance at night. It needs way more light than other PTZs since it doesn't have the ideal MP/sensor ratio.

It needs a lot of light (visible or infrared) at night or the focus will be soft.

Because it is a dome, the IR is the weakest of the PTZs.

See the review thread:


And this comparison:

 
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If the PTZ5A4M-25X is in the budget, highly recommend. It is larger and screams PTZ though. The PTZ425DB-AT is smaller, and the dome hides the fact it’s a PTZ somewhat. But, it’s a dome camera and that makes it less ideal for being outside. The IR lights on both sides of the lens does give it nice menacing red eyed look under the dome as it follows you around
 

Sir V Lance

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You should only get this if the price and smaller form factor are your main criteria and you are willing to sacrifice some performance at night. It needs way more light than other PTZs since it doesn't have the ideal MP/sensor ratio.

It needs a lot of light (visible or infrared) at night or the focus will be soft.

Because it is a dome, the IR is the weakest of the PTZs.

See the review thread:


And this comparison:

Thanks for the links wittaj.

Form factor is a driving criteria. It seems like the bugs mentioned in the review have probably been worked out by now. The location where I am considering using it has a couple of sconce porch lights that turn on at sundown and turn off at sunrise. That would probably help the camera's night performance, sans a power outage coincident with a suspicious person lurking around in the dark. Am I the only one with that kind of luck? LOL
 

Sir V Lance

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If the PTZ5A4M-25X is in the budget, highly recommend. It is larger and screams PTZ though. The PTZ425DB-AT is smaller, and the dome hides the fact it’s a PTZ somewhat. But, it’s a dome camera and that makes it less ideal for being outside. The IR lights on both sides of the lens does give it nice menacing red eyed look under the dome as it follows you around
Off topic alert...

A fellow XJ fan. Cool! I have 2 XJs, 2 CJs, and a TJ. The wife asked when I thought I would have enough Jeeps. I told her I would let her know. LOL
 

wittaj

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Thanks for the links wittaj.

Form factor is a driving criteria. It seems like the bugs mentioned in the review have probably been worked out by now. The location where I am considering using it has a couple of sconce porch lights that turn on at sundown and turn off at sunrise. That would probably help the camera's night performance, sans a power outage coincident with a suspicious person lurking around in the dark. Am I the only one with that kind of luck? LOL
Don't underestimate how much light these sensors need! Maybe close to the house you will be ok, but much past 15-20 feet I wouldn't count on it.
 

Sir V Lance

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Don't underestimate how much light these sensors need! Maybe close to the house you will be ok, but much past 15-20 feet I wouldn't count on it.
Do the IR illuminators help at all? Seems like the spec sheets may be exaggerating a little. For this PTZ they claim 100m IR range. How should one actually interpret that in terms of nighttime performance?
 

wittaj

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All cameras, regardless of manufacturer, claims are exaggerated.

IF they can meet this, it is under IDEAL situations - other light available, object not moving, a wide open slow as snot shutter and cranked up gain, etc.

Not how any of us would run a camera if we care about getting clean captures of moving objects.

The faster the shutter, the easier it is to get a clean capture of motion.

But the faster the shutter, the more light is needed.

If all you care about is general look around, then yeah it can meet that.

But once you make the shutter 1/60 or 1/120, you will find that number needs to be cut at least in half if not 75%.

Mine with a 1/100 shutter I wouldn't trust past 40-50 feet.

I bought an Iluminar external IR that had claims of 100 feet. With a 1/250 shutter, couldn't even tell it was on at 35 feet.
 

Sir V Lance

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All cameras, regardless of manufacturer, claims are exaggerated.

IF they can meet this, it is under IDEAL situations - other light available, object not moving, a wide open slow as snot shutter and cranked up gain, etc.

Not how any of us would run a camera if we care about getting clean captures of moving objects.

The faster the shutter, the easier it is to get a clean capture of motion.

But the faster the shutter, the more light is needed.

If all you care about is general look around, then yeah it can meet that.

But once you make the shutter 1/60 or 1/120, you will find that number needs to be cut at least in half if not 75%.

Mine with a 1/100 shutter I wouldn't trust past 40-50 feet.

I bought an Iluminar external IR that had claims of 100 feet. With a 1/250 shutter, couldn't even tell it was on at 35 feet.
My gut knew that was going to be the case. Thanks for anchoring me to reality. Apparently the laws of physics prevail over Adobe PDF. And money seems to be linearly proportional to those damn laws. LOL
 

wittaj

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Yep. This is at 50 feet with IR at full blast 100, outside lights on, other cameras IR hitting this area, and car headlights helping.

Don't get me wrong, it is a good camera and the size and price can't be beat for its capabilities. It is just a shame they didn't pair up an ideal MP/sensor ratio on it. But for many use cases, it can work. And if the alternative is no PTZ, well then I would take it even with the soft focus.

1707619907668.png

Same goes with the DORI number (Detect, Observe, Recognize, Identify).

You can probably cut those numbers in half during the daytime and cut the daytime number in half or 75% at night.
 
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Sir V Lance

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Don't get me wrong, it is a good camera and the size and price can't be beat for its capabilities. It is just a shame they didn't pair up an ideal MP/sensor ratio on it. But for many use cases, it can work. And if the alternative is no PTZ, well then I would take it even with the soft focus.
The compact size and low price are still compelling to me. I may be able to live with the non-ideal MP/sensor ratio for my application.

I am trying to figure out how the model that EmpireTech is selling correlates to Dahua part numbers.

EmpireTech sells the PTZ425DB-AT. Dahua lists a 4A425DBNR and a SD4A425DB-HNY which seem identical from their datasheets.

What are the differences between these two Duhua models? Does one supersede the other, or are they both currently available models?

Which of these Dahua model numbers is the same as the unit being sold by EmpireTech?
 

wittaj

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They are all the same. Naming changes based on where you buy.

The 4A425DBNR is the USA version, which could potentially mean it is region locked.

The SD4A425DB-HNY is the International version. This is the same as Andy sells.

Andy used to be able to sell them under the international names and that made it easy, but he was required to make them different about a year ago.
 

Sir V Lance

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They are all the same. Naming changes based on where you buy.

The 4A425DBNR is the USA version, which could potentially mean it is region locked.

The SD4A425DB-HNY is the International version. This is the same as Andy sells.

Andy used to be able to sell them under the international names and that made it easy, but he was required to make them different about a year ago.
Thanks wittaj. This is good to know.

So it sounds like if I find a datasheet on the Dahua international site that aligns with something Andy is listing on his site then it is a safe bet it is the same product.

I am not sure I understand what "region locked" means.
 

wittaj

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That would be correct.

Also keep in mind that many of the Amazon listings have the Dahua International number in the URL.

Take for example the IPC-T54IR-ZE that most of us still call by the 5442-ZE name. Here is the URL from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-[B]T5442T-ZE[/B]-Vari-Focal-Eyeball-Starlight/dp/B08C77TNY9/ref=pd_ci_mcx_pspc_dp_d_2_t_2?pd_rd_w=qn4dT&content-id=amzn1.sym.568f3b6b-5aad-4bfd-98ee-d827f03151e4&pf_rd_p=568f3b6b-5aad-4bfd-98ee-d827f03151e4&pf_rd_r=MXR6MFJVAV2DS6BA96NC&pd_rd_wg=2Lnyy&pd_rd_r=a437e38a-7940-4894-85b7-a9790d6edb27&pd_rd_i=B08C77TNY9&th=1



The region lock would only apply if you tried to update it or sold it to someone outside of the USA. That is how many cameras become bricked that people buy on AliExpress. They are hard-coded for a region and if someone tries to update the firmware it bricks.

Some vendors are upfront like this example below, but most are not.

1708039142580.png
 
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Sir V Lance

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The region lock would only apply if you tried to update it or sold it to someone outside of the USA. That is how many cameras become bricked that people buy on AliExpress. They are hard-coded for a region and if someone tries to update the firmware it bricks.
I have read it here a few times regarding updating camera firmware: "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

Sounds like good advice to me.
 

Sir V Lance

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Circling back to the discussion about the non-ideal MP/sensor ratio of this PTZ camera (4MP on 1/2.8") in terms of nighttime performance...

I understand the key point is that a larger sensor can gather more light per pixel. The sweet spot for a 2MP sensor is a 1/2.8" sensor. So when you cram 4MP onto that same 1/2.8" sensor, the pixel density roughly doubles, the pixel size decreases, hence, each pixel gathers less light. But, it is possible to select alternate video resolutions from the camera and drop down to 2MP. When setting it at 2MP, does the camera aggregate multiple pixels to end up with the reduced frame size, thereby benefiting from additional light gathering potential when using multiple pixels to represent a single pixel in the reduced frame? In other words, by dropping down to 2MP resolution, does that put the camera into the sweet spot range of 2MP on a 1/2.8" sensor? I am anticipating the answer to be that there is no such thing as a free lunch, but I figured I would ask the dumb question anyhow.
 

wittaj

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Circling back to the discussion about the non-ideal MP/sensor ratio of this PTZ camera (4MP on 1/2.8") in terms of nighttime performance...

I understand the key point is that a larger sensor can gather more light per pixel. The sweet spot for a 2MP sensor is a 1/2.8" sensor. So when you cram 4MP onto that same 1/2.8" sensor, the pixel density roughly doubles, the pixel size decreases, hence, each pixel gathers less light. But, it is possible to select alternate video resolutions from the camera and drop down to 2MP. When setting it at 2MP, does the camera aggregate multiple pixels to end up with the reduced frame size, thereby benefiting from additional light gathering potential when using multiple pixels to represent a single pixel in the reduced frame? In other words, by dropping down to 2MP resolution, does that put the camera into the sweet spot range of 2MP on a 1/2.8" sensor? I am anticipating the answer to be that there is no such thing as a free lunch, but I figured I would ask the dumb question anyhow.
Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 4 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 4MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 2MP to 4MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 4MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from Andy based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.


Here is a real world example from the 49225 (2MP on 1/2.8" sensor) versus 49425 (4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor)

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:


2MP.jpg



Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:


4MP.jpg



The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP 49425 down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP 49225 as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.


4MP downrez 2MP.jpg



As always YMMV and I am sure the newer cameras are improved over when this camera came out, but even so I don't think we see a higher MP downrez come close to the performance of a native MP on the same size sensor because the higher MP just isn't letting enough light into the optics as the lower MP on the same size sensor.

And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.
 
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