What will it take to go from 15fps to 30fps?

killerbps

n3wb
Jan 21, 2023
5
1
US
15fps seems to not drop frames but 30fps does. Both 15fps and 30fps use the same amount of bandwidth around 90Mbps, so its not bandwidth as it doesn't change maybe 1 or 2Mbps. I don't have a real reason to need 30fps but it just chaps my backside not to be able to use full capacity, I have finally given up and submitted to the standard 15fps but just wonder what more could have been done to get full 30fps.

The Cameras on a dedicated POE switch with 1gbps fiber connection the the core network, the core network is routed with a 10gbps router. I wish the camera switch had a 10gbps up link to match my network, but as it stands it doesn't us more than 20% of the 1gbps link.

The NVR is a synology 720+ The CPU/Ram on the 720+ don't change at 15 or 30fps so doesn't seem to be CPU/Memory.

This leads me to think maybe its the HDD can't keep up and I need more iops?

Here I uploaded a file while still streaming the recording, as you can see I easily jumped 100mbps from the normal 97mbps to the now 198mbps. So plenty of bandwidth.

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Switch uplink

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It may be the camera!

This is totally a YMMV and some cameras are better than others, but many of them have low-end processors in them, so although they are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you could max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.

I'm not saying my analogy of a car redline or MPG is a perfect analogy, but rather I am pointing out a fact that stuff we buy is always marketed as more capable than it is, especially if you are using all of the features. Does your car get its stated MPG in every situation - NO...

Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.

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Do we really believe every marketing claim of every product you see on Amazon?

Just like a computer - it is rated for this and that, but if you are running the CPU at 100%, something is going to give. Same with these little cameras with a lot less computing power.


So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.

Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.

This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.

At the end of the day, if the unknowing consumer wants cameras that can do 30 or 60 FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.

And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in or multiple IVS rules, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.

And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature to make the camera stable...

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In addition, look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...

Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. As I said, they "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.


Now some here do run 30FPS and don't have a problem or don't notice a problem. They may have better cameras or maybe not maxing out every parameter.

OR maybe someone can run 30FPS when the matched camera and NVR brand, but using a 3rd party VMS is what causes problems.

OR maybe 30FPS and H264 codec works, but 30FPS and H265 doesn't because H265 uses more processing power.

Lot's of variables.


When I first entered this arena, I ran all of mine at max FPS. Then I learned shutter speed was more important than FPS. I run BI and it has been shown it is more stable at 15FPS or lower.

Then I figured since movies for the big screen are shot at 24FPS, I didn't need 30FPS for my monitor and phone LOL.

Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS



 
You know that is a good point I have assumed the lost frame was on the NVR end, but it could very well be camera hardware that provides me no monitoring, and I am very aware of the difference between china stats vs real life, nothing shows that better than flashlights you can get 1 Million China Lumens, which is real world 100 Lumens. IT was the video you posted here that finally made me agree 15 was enough and change to 15, and looking at my playback its 200% better to have all 15fps then to get between 1- 20 randomly. I was going to try SSD raid for video but really thinking about your camera hardware I think that's likely the real issue, its not like I am paying 1000.00 each for these camera's.
 
You need to figure out what component of the system is dropping the frames. There are a few opportunities for frames to be dropped.

First opportunity is within the camera itself due to using underpowered hardware that can't keep up with the demands. This is probably the most likely situation. You MAY be able to compensate by changing the video codec or lowering the bit rate but then you have to ask how valuable 30 FPS really is.

Frame drops during network transit or recording are extremely unlikely and would result in video corruption because with H.264/H.265 video most of the frames are dependent on the frames that come before. So if a frame is missing in the recording then you end up with not just a stutter but visual corruption too until the next iframe arrives. If a network or disk is too slow what actually happens is buffers fill up, the video becomes delayed, and eventually other problems can occur when a buffer is full; either the video freezes or the connection gets "lost" and reconnected or actually frames begin to drop and you get the visual corruption I was talking about.

Frame drops during playback are also possible. Most client devices are plenty fast enough and have hardware acceleration to play even 4K @ 30 FPS video without issue so if frames are dropped during playback it is likely a software issue. How are you playing the video? What if you export a recording to a local SSD (not network attached) and play it in VLC media player or another popular open source video player that is known to be fast and reliable?
 
Side not I have been dealing with this for years with different NAS and different cameras although same cam vendor, which likely added to the illusion it was NVR side, me thinking hey I refreshed with "Current" gen cameras problem still here problem must be in what was always here. I am now frozen on my NVR brand and firmware because next update tehy strip h265 for the same reason you talk about camera firmware getting feature reduction.
 
You need to figure out what component of the system is dropping the frames. There are a few opportunities for frames to be dropped.

First opportunity is within the camera itself due to using underpowered hardware that can't keep up with the demands. This is probably the most likely situation. You MAY be able to compensate by changing the video codec or lowering the bit rate but then you have to ask how valuable 30 FPS really is.

Frame drops during network transit or recording are extremely unlikely and would result in video corruption because with H.264/H.265 video most of the frames are dependent on the frames that come before. So if a frame is missing in the recording then you end up with not just a stutter but visual corruption too until the next iframe arrives.

Frame drops during playback are also possible. Most client devices are plenty fast enough and have hardware acceleration to play even 4K @ 30 FPS video without issue so if frames are dropped during playback it is likely a software issue. How are you playing the video? What if you export a recording to a local SSD (not network attached) and play it in VLC media player or another popular open source video player that is known to be fast and reliable?
So the second one I have personally seen prior to upgrading the nvr software, it would play back then it would turn into huge pixelated blocks for several seconds and then pop back in, whereas now its more like FPS drops out it will only show like 2 or 3 fps but no corruption.
For the third I have tried it all remote playback "Streamed", downloading the full recording they are in 30 minute blocks so just download an old recording that already written. This shows the same as the stream only getting like 1-5fps.

My client is is not the best but I suspect it could do the job. i9-13900, RTX 3070TI, 64gb ram, evo 990 NVME. I used to use this client to run a LPR software and so I needed huge compute to run the AI model. It was back in the day when I was running LPR said 30fps was my goal because it did impact LPR funciton.
 
Maybe they remove h.265 support because the hardware isn't up to the task and it causes problems at 30 FPS? :)
They want you to think that but funny story about h.265 removal it only impact 3rd party cameras if you buy their camera you can have h.265 and they are removing it from all hardware even their enterprise level NAS that run dedicated GPU's. Synology is just greedy and thought hey how can we get people to buy our cameras we want to be like Ubiquity,
 
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Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.
Reminds me of "The Grapevine" on I-5 south of Bakersfield, CA and its 6% grade. going up in the summer pulling a trailer and the A/C on is courting an overheating condition.

In 1976 I drove up it in my '75 F-250 Frod Camper Special, 390 V8, 4bbl carb, loaded with 9 foot self contained cabover camper, all gear and ex-wife. It had a HUGE radiator with lots of coolant, trans cooler and oil cooler. The water temp gauge was barely to the right of center so no real engine overheat BUT get this: it got so hot under the hod it percolated the gas causing vapor-lock and the engine RPM's dropped to a crawl like you had taken your foot off the acccelator pedal. I pulled over, raised thre hood and the heat practically knocked me down.

I let it cool down and pulled the flexible, tar-impregnated mud splatter shields on both inside fenderwheels to get air inside the engine compartment and finsihed the trip....no more vaporlock.
 
I most often see these posts with PC based NVRs fwiw

You didnt mention if this dropping of frames was happening on Live View, Playback, or with individual downloaded recorded clips"

I have zero problems running 30FPS with 8-16Mbps bitrate and H.264.h with Dahua cameras and a Dahua NVR.
My experience with h.265 is that it saves little space with Dahua gear and can be problematic as to image quality and experiences like this

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