Which NVR for Remote Rental Home?

[MacFun]

Can you suggest a rock-solid, full-featured NVR? I'm buying a new home out of state and it will be under renovation for a while and sometimes vacant so I wanted to keep an eye on it and where the property will be rented eventually.

Features & Expectations:
-Reliability. I would hope to be able to address all problems remotely without having to touch the install for years if possible.
-Shared Access. I may have to share the footage with the tenant. I would want to manage full control but give them some level of access.
-Useful Motion Clips. My Arlo just sent me a motion event where trash cans were removed from a driveway and brought back and where the clip shows none of this. I can tell the trash cans were moved and emptied but no person was recorded in the clip. I would want to avoid this problem.
-Record 24/7 and push clips off-site. That's what I'm doing now with my Mac mini based SecuritySpy.
-Ease of saving a clip if something goes wrong.
-Clip sharing like Nest and Arlo allow? This is pretty slick.

Can you suggest some NVRs to consider for this new property?

Without extensive research, I'm thinking:
-Synology Surveillance Station
-Ubiquity.... but don't like to be beholden to their cameras
-Dedicated NVR (Dahua?) I have never used this.
-Blue Iris. I know some of you used to swear by this solution but I'm hesitant about Windows OS running for years unattended and expecting it to go without a glitch that requires a site visit.
-Something Linux based?

Thanks

R

 

[wittaj]

An NVR or BI meets your requirements. I think BI would be a better fit, but the NVR are users will disagree LOL.

Arlo missed because they only record on motion.

The clip sharing won't be as easy as Nest or Arlo, but you will have better quality. I would rather have better quality than easy sharing of a clip LOL.

People wrongfully assume NVRs are more reliable than a PC.

A BI/PC combo is always less expensive than an NVR. Sure there are NVRs cheaper, but they are limited. Not all NVRs are created equal. Sure you can buy a cheaper NVR but it is limited to 40Mbps, which depending on how someone sets up the cameras, could mean that an 8 channel NVR can only run 4 cameras.

Turn off Windows and BI auto updates and have the computer autostart on a shutdown and run BI as a service and you have a more powerful NVR that is still more secure than an NVR that rarely gets updates.

Since the BI computer is being used as a stand-alone device, the device isn't out surfing the Internet so the value of the critical updates are not as critical.

Plus the computer will have virus protection software on it that an NVR doesn't.

BI allows for anonymous update of performance data. People have had it running nonstop for over 2465 days, or almost 7 years... And I suspect that the last time it rebooted was when they manually did it...I was an NVR user before I made the switch and I never had an NVR last 5 years LOL

 

[MacFun]

I suppose they were running a UPS with a good runtime to get those results.

Okay, I will Strat looking for the proper hardware to run BI. I bought a copy a few years ago but never used it since I was a Mac user and never got that far with a Windoze Box.

Thanks,

R

 

[MacFun]

Any benefits to a dedicated Dahua NVR?

 

[bigredfish]

Yes, I would guess that 80%+ of users here use an NVR including me, many of them. They're simple and reliable contrary to what some may say.

It will do all you asked. (except online sharing center of clips, thats only for hosted cloud services)
This one should be fine if you need 8 or less channels

EmpireTech NVR8CH-8P-2AI 8 Channels 1U 8PoE 2HDD Network Video Recorde

Multiple decoding formats | AI by recorder | AI by camera | Security baseline 2.3

empiretech01.com

(Its a Dahua NVR rebranded by our favorite supplier. Same box different sticker)

I have NVRs running now since 2017 they are reliable.
They are not much more expensive, if at all, than a computer and BI (and hard drives) and less difficult on initial startup and configuration
They are every bit as secure as BI as neither should be exposed to the internet directly.
Directly expose a windows machine and that NVR to the internet and tell me which one you hack first
The PoE NVRs have the security advantage of putting your cameras out of reach from a hacker even if he gets into the NVR
Use of a VPN or P2P to manage keeps both secure
The newer models have extensive security features built in


BI’s main advantage is a few features that NVRs don’t have such as custom programming capabilities and integrating with 3rd party programs

 

[wittaj]

Like everything, personal preference plays a role. Some prefer Honda and others prefer Toyota or Ford versus Dodge LOL.

I have both and prefer BI. I feel like I can set it up faster and have more flexibility, and having recently "rebuilt" my BI on a different computer and setting up an NVR for my neighbor, BI was faster for me to set up. When an incident happened and we had to scrub video, I could scrub BI video much faster than the NVR video. YMMV.

The NVR recommended above costs $394 plus tax. It doesn't include a HDD.

For BI, most of us recommend a used HP EliteDesk as they are typically from a business environment and/or were bought in bulk by a business and being sold at a discount. I have bought several this way and they have all looked brand new and not even used. A used 8th gen on ebay can be found for $88 to $150. Let's just go with $150. Then you need an 8 port POE and can find a Netgear on ebay for $25. So we are at $175 plus BI license at $63 for a total of $238 plus tax. Or a savings of $156 or more. Remember you need to buy a HDD for either option, so that is a wash.

Most of us running BI use that computer for only BI, so it is in essence a dedicated NVR.

Here is the search tool of all the NVR versus BI comparisons:

blue iris vs nvr ip cam site:ipcamtalk.com - Google Search

 

[tigerwillow1]

Yes, I would guess that 80%+ of users here use an NVR including me, many of them. They're simple and reliable contrary to what some may say.

You're sure sticking your neck out there .
As just another random user report, I've been using a Dahua NVR for 7+ years and am considering switching to BI mainly because I'm out of NVR channels. I've been running both in parallel for about 6 months and have a lot of observations. Haven't decided yet whether to go with BI or get a 32 channel NVR. Even though I'm a nerd type, I want the camera system to be a tool and not a hobby, so my opinions are oriented more as from a non-technical user.

My BI system is now stable and running reliably. To get there I've spent over 100 hours of debugging and troubleshooting that were not needed with the NVR. If I had a day job or kids at home I would have walked away from it a long time ago. Many users can avoid the two biggest time sinks I ran into. The first was that I set it up with CPAI 2.5. The system was unstable and I finally gave up on debugging and reinstalled from scratch without CPAI. The second was some sort of problem with the Intel UHD graphics driver, which windows installs by default in my Elite Desk 800 i7-8700 machine. The failure happens at least 12 hours after a reboot, making debugging a very drawn out process. (Yes, I've tried the latest driver from Intel). I incorrectly assumed it was a BI problem and spent a lot of time down that debugging rathole. The final solution was to dump the Intel display driver and use the Microsoft basic display driver.

Current conclusions:
Pro BI:
1. Way, way easier to review camera triggers. This is big. It's huge. Night and day difference. Game changer. Pretty much the only reason that I go on with BI.
2. Highly flexible, feature rich, and configurable. Can also be a con depending on user type.
3. Practical to mix cameras from multiple vendors.
4. A very, very impressive piece of software, at a totally reasonable price.
Against BI:
1. Flexibility and configurability , while great for a hobbyist, make setup difficult and time consuming for somebody who has limited time or technical knowledge.
2. Using digital I/O requires purchasing an addin card, very expensive unless can find a good deal on a used one.
Pro NVR:
1. Relatively easy to set up.
2. Great reliability history.
3. Most models have digital I/O ports built in.
4. Option to have built-in POE ports (which I actually don't like for my own situation).
Against NVR:
Reviewing clips takes more time and work.

 

[bigredfish]

With what 100,000 members, I can assure you that its 80%+, betcha a Stella

What is it that makes reviewing camera triggers so different/awesome?


I can either us SmartPSS to look at the timeline, or I can use the AI search on the NVR to display just the events
I choose human, Vehicle, Face Detect, Non-motor vehicle, or IVS and see those events.
Granted I cant say "Google show me the red cars" but the new Acupick can effectively do that

In NVR AI search


NVR regular playback single or multi cameras synched


SmartPSS multi or single review/playback by timeline or list on right

 

[wittaj]

With what 100,000 members, I can assure you that its 80%+, betcha a Stella

What is it that makes reviewing camera triggers so different/awesome?


I can either us SmartPSS to look at the timeline, or I can use the AI search on the NVR to display just the events
I choose human, Vehicle, Face Detect, Non-motor vehicle, or IVS and see those events.
Granted I cant say "Google show me the red cars" but the new Acupick can effectively do that

In NVR AI search
View attachment 202648 View attachment 202649 View attachment 202650 View attachment 202651 View attachment 202652

NVR regular playback single or multi cameras synched
View attachment 202653 View attachment 202654

SmartPSS multi or single review/playback by timeline or list on right
View attachment 202656 View attachment 202655

You seem to be about the only one that gets actual thumbnails LOL. I have tried and tried with my neighbors and it is the generic.

But that aside, I go to his house with my laptop and VPN back into my BI and pull up his NVR and their computer and SmartPSS and the time to scrub is so much faster with BI.

Maybe it is time for you to download the trial of BI and see for yourself.

You and @tigerwillow1 have been some of the biggest advocates for NVRs over the years, and I never would have expected @tigerwillow1 to become a BI fan, but he finally gave it a try and is kinda sold on it LOL. Time to convert the big fish!

 

[bigredfish]

I did a few years ago. I’m not seeing it.

Can someone show me with pics and explain like I’m 5 how this magical fast scrubbing works and what it means in time and effort for a typical homeowner?

 

[tigerwillow1]

What is it that makes reviewing camera triggers so different/awesome?

1) Thumbnails snapped at trigger time, quick and easy to scroll through.
2. Display thumbnails from all cameras or selected group arranged by time.
3. In UI3, thumbnails play in fast forward when hovered over, often eliminating the need to bring up the clip.
(I use only smartPss to view, so don't know if the this applies to the native NVR interface)
4. Scroll wheel zooms without having to select "+" and draw a box.
5. smartPss zoom level cancels at every event start or event end. This is maddening!
I'm sure I've missed other items here. Since I'm always looking for animals, people, or vehicles, the AI search doesn't have a lot of value for me. Can smartPss do AI search anyway?

All of the things I'm bragging about could be done by smartPss, but they aren't. The only UI downside I see is that BI doesn't display the IVS rule lines, which I miss greatly.

You and @tigerwillow1 have been some of the biggest advocates for NVRs over the years, and I never would have expected @tigerwillow1 to become a BI fan, but he finally gave it a try and is kinda sold on it LOL.

You are optimistically interpreting my "Haven't decided yet" statement. I could go either way, and with my history of decision paralysis it's possible I could keep running both. I won't even consider shutting down the NVR until BI runs a few more months without any hiccups. So far it's about 2 weeks since getting past the display driver problem.

I did a few years ago. I’m not seeing it.

I also tried BI a few years ago and gave up on it. It was too darn complicated to set up correctly, and the UI is so different from the NVR and smartPss that having used them makes it harder to learn BI than starting from scratch. I assume the same thing would apply going from BI to NVR. Needing more channels forced me to try harder with BI this time, and it's been a bit of a struggle to learn it.

 

[bigredfish]

I have other hobbies. I don’t need to learn how to scrub videos 10 seconds faster

Now knock .25 seconds off my first shot from the holster concealed and I’m all ears!

 

[bigredfish]

#5? Mine doesn’t

 

[tigerwillow1]

I have other hobbies. I don’t need to learn how to scrub videos 10 seconds faster

With my 16 camera system it's more like 1 or 2 minutes in the morning, compared to 10, and way less mouse clicks.

 

[tigerwillow1]

#5? Mine doesn’t

This would sure be more efficient on the phone. Are you saying that if you start a playback just before an event, hit the "+" key and draw a box to zoom, that the zoom continues in effect when the timeline crosses through the event start or end? With smartPss? If so, I want to know how! This is one of my big gripes.

 

[wittaj]

@tigerwillow1 - yeah I know you are still on the fence, but you even coming on a post to talk good things about BI is a start LOL.

I still argue that "out of the box" the default settings for BI is good for most people.

But when you have more options comes the tendency to want to play around and try even more optimizations and tricks and stuff LOL.

When you tried BI again recently, you went all in with trying CodeProject for the animal AI, so you did a jump that most of us wouldn't recommend right at the get go. We would suggest get comfortable with BI first and once you feel like it is stable, then introduce CodeProject into the mix.

And yeah it sucks the driver issue you had. That certainly didn't help.

But I am with you, I can find stuff thru a scrub much faster in BI than the NVR, like orders of magnitude faster, not 10 seconds faster like bigredfish suggested LOL.

 

[bigredfish]

This would sure be more efficient on the phone. Are you saying that if you start a playback just before an event, hit the "+" key and draw a box to zoom, that the zoom continues in effect when the timeline crosses through the event start or end? With smartPss? If so, I want to know how! This is one of my big gripes.

Oh no. You're talking about a manual digital zoom box on a recording? No, and I rarely use digital zoom but just tried that and no it does not. Cant think of why Id use that
I guess on a phone, but I just full screen the one camera Im working on and its fine. For serious "every morning" review of events last night I use a real computer and screen

 

[tigerwillow1]

About using digital zoom. This is one of my camera views. I originally used a 5231 zoom to be able to ID vehicle and animal type at the end of the driveway, a bit over 200' away. Switching to a 5442 I was able to double the FOV and have the same ID capability, but I have to use digital zoom or things are just too darn small on the screen. I also tried a 5842 that made it even better during the day, but had to walk away from that because of no animal detection.



Interesting unrelated tidbit, I have a magnetic sensor at the end of the driveway. Bucks with antlers set it off.

 

[MacFun]

Do you know how the Dahua 16-channel N42C3P4 NVR from B&H relates to the International model numbers normally discussed here? Here is the bundle that comes with 12 cameras too.

Dahua Technology N464L124A 16-Channel 4K UHD NVR with 4TB HDD & 12 4MP Night Vision Turret Cameras

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1733774-REG/dahua_technology_n464l124a_4mp_ip_e_vu_security.html

How might the functionality, capacity and features differ from the previously recommended EmpireTech NVR8CH-8P-2AI?

FWIW, I like the way the hardware looks from Dahua compared to the generic looking Empire box.... plus 5 year warranty via B&H where the customer service has always been stellar and beyond the call of duty.

Thanks,

R

 

[wittaj]

Those cameras are on 1/3" sensors, or basically shoving 4MP on a sensor designed for 720P. Night performance will not be good.

The hardware looks the same, except one has a Dahua logo and one doesn't....