Which NVR to upgrade with from Hikvision

B

blocksog

Getting the hang of it
Jul 4, 2024
79
25
Northeast
Hi all,

I have an old LaView system with 16 PoE cameras. The NVR started to act up, so I decided to upgrade. There are three options on the table:

* DS-7616NXI-I2 - I already got this NVR and the AI helps to mark footage for humans and cars, which I find helpful. I am talking about Motion Detection 2.0. I bought this on Amazon and will probably have no support at all.

*DS-7716NXI-I4 - I ordered this from an an online store claiming to be Hikvision authorized reseller. I thought this would be my final choice, it has some better specs vs. the 7616, including more HDD slots. The order kept lingering for weeks and now they say this model is discontinued. They are proposing to give me the next one below.

* DS-7716NI-M4 - This would be same price as the 7716nxi, i.e. $500. It would probably have better bandwidth than the I series, but these M series do not have any AI from what I understand. With no AI, I am left with the need to upgrade cameras to have smarter functionality.

What should I do? Is there any benefit of getting the M series besides the higher bandwidth for higher resolution cameras in the future? I may upgrade few cameras, but don't really want to upgrade all of them.

Or should I just keep the 7616nxi from Amazon that is without support?

Btw, this is for a residence, I don't look at the cameras often, all I need is to maybe set an alarm in the future when I leave home, run a smart search here and there, and find easily relevant footage for playback.

Thanks.
 
Many come HERE after having a useless phone call with support LOL and end up getting better help here.

If the device is a big enough savings over the one with "support" go for it.

Motion Detection 2.0 isn't all it is cracked up to be, but if it is working for you, then go for it. Many find it still produces a lot of false triggers.

Now do keep in mind that having the NVR do the AI instead of the cameras, it does throttle the NVR in some capacity.

Most prefer the AI and if you have the NVR do it because your cameras cannot, then it is limited to only 4 cameras even thought it is a 16 channel NVR

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wittaj said:
Most prefer the AI and if you have the NVR do it because your cameras cannot, then it is limited to only 4 cameras even thought it is a 16 channel NVR

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I have enabled Motion Detection 2.0 on 15 cameras and it seems to work without complaining. This is another mystery of specs to me, between all of AI engines and options, it is hard to figure out which AI feature is limited to 4 channels and why MD works on all of them

This said, I agree that MD2.0 is not 100 accurate. It picks up occasionally cats and leaves as people. But I don't use any alarm at all currently, so can't talk about the experience is having an NVR that notifies you if someone is entering the garage in the middle of the night :)
 
blocksog said:
I have enabled Motion Detection 2.0 on 15 cameras and it seems to work without complaining. This is another mystery of specs to me, between all of AI engines and options, it is hard to figure out which AI feature is limited to 4 channels and why MD works on all of them

This said, I agree that MD2.0 is not 100 accurate. It picks up occasionally cats and leaves as people. But I don't use any alarm at all currently, so can't talk about the experience is having an NVR that notifies you if someone is entering the garage in the middle of the night :)
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the main rule on both Dahua and HIK cams / NVR...

if camera have some AI function (Smart Motion Detection, IVS with human & cars filtering etc) then You don't need NVR with AI functions.. All AI is done on camera and NVR only stores video footage & events & marks on HDDs...

AI enabled NVR's are only for situation when You have dumb cameras - then You can add some AI to them. And only in this situations AI limits on NVR (like IVS only for 4 channels) is counted when you enable this AI function done on NVR for dumb camera channel.

And another important rule for AI:

Smart Motion Detection, both in Dahua & HIK execution are simplest and most dumb AI filtering with can generate some false positives (and negatives).
Much better is properly configured IVS with human/cars filtering..

ps. be aware that HIK have revisions of it's products - especially NVR's.. they are labeled using letters like (A), (B), (C), (D) after model number.. each have different feature set (different AI functions & limits) and each have different firmware line... usually only latest one have fresh firmware...
 
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blocksog said:
Price? Does it work correctly with human/vehicle detection sent by the cameras?
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$299 (4HDD) or $499 (8 HDD).
store.ui.com

Network Video Recorder - Ubiquiti Store

A video recorder with (4) 2.5/3.5" HDD bays that can support up to 30 days of storage for (18) 4K cameras or (60) Full HD cameras.
store.ui.com store.ui.com

No, it does support the built-in AI functions on individual cameras right now. As matter of fact, it does not even support simple motion detection.

When using with non-Ubiquiti brand cameras, if you want anything more than constant recording, you need to add Unifi AI Ports ($199/ea) for that. With the AI-Ports, it's incredible. The accuracy is lights out. Including with ALPR function at distances where the camera lens has no business capturing plates.

Right now, it's 1 per cam. It will be as many as 5 per AI port with future firmware upgrades.

Regardless of cost, it's worth it. Either through the web or on a phone, the software interface is incredible. Feels like something designed by Apple, not China. So easy find the info you need.

I love the image quality of Chinese camera (Dahua, Hik), but the rest of the experience always seemed like a joke. I now have that image quality with a modern, professional-looking product. Set up with Internet Explorer 2 years after support ended? No thanks.
 
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blocksog said:
* DS-7616NXI-I2 - I already got this NVR and the AI helps to mark footage for humans and cars, which I find helpful. I am talking about Motion Detection 2.0. I bought this on Amazon and will probably have no support at all.



* DS-7716NI-M4 - This would...
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I'm looking for a NVR upgrade too.

One of the parameters I'm looking for is increasing the incoming bandwidth- so the NVR can handle higher MP cameras better. The I2 has a incoming bandwidth of 160Mbps whereas the M4 has 256Mbps. (So that's 10Mbps vs 16Mbps per camera.) I'm not sure if that is something that concerns you at all? My current NVR is 10Mbps/ channel and that seems to be a bottle neck with 4k cameras (affecting the image quality.)
 
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triumph202 said:
I'm looking for a NVR upgrade too.

One of the parameters I'm looking for is increasing the incoming bandwidth- so the NVR can handle higher MP cameras better. The I2 has a incoming bandwidth of 160Mbps whereas the M4 has 256Mbps. (So that's 10Mbps vs 16Mbps per camera.) I'm not sure if that is something that concerns you at all? My current NVR is 10Mbps/ channel and that seems to be a bottle neck with 4k cameras (affecting the image quality.)
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One should always try for the highest bandwidth they can afford. As you said, as MP increases, it really takes a hit to the bandwidth. And use any AI functions in the NVR and some have their bandwidth or other capacity cut by doing so.
 
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^That's Like saying Beetlejuice three times, or calling Hikvision Superman. :)
He's probably saving a wayward NVR user from ripping his hair out on the other side of the Globe.
 
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Well, I just dropped the offer to get the DS-7716NI-M4 for $500. I know it may come back to bite me but I have too many old cameras to upgrade them now, so better to rely on the suboptimal Motion Detection 2.0 of the NXI series.

The Ubiquity recommendation is quite intriguing though. @Ookie I don't understand how you can find everything you want if you just do plain recording. Say for example you need to check each car that passed in front of your house today. You can't sit there to watch hours of recording. How do you do that with your Ubiquity NVR + Hikvision camera setup? Are you paying them $200 for each camera just to have AI?
 
blocksog said:
The Ubiquity recommendation is quite intriguing though. @Ookie I don't understand how you can find everything you want if you just do plain recording. Say for example you need to check each car that passed in front of your house today. You can't sit there to watch hours of recording. How do you do that with your Ubiquity NVR + Hikvision camera setup? Are you paying them $200 for each camera just to have AI?
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Right now, yes. As I mentioned, with a firmware upgrade, it will be expanded to five cameras, so eventually $40/camera. For now, I only have it on four of my 14 cams. Which is enough to find incidents, as they cover routes of ingress and egress. I will have capacity to do it on up to 20 when the firmware matures.

On the positive side, it's mindblowingly accurate. Even on animal detections. So easy to set criteria, get push messages for a certain license plate, etc. The AI software is written by an American company, not the same people who make the NVR interfaces that look like they fit in with Windows 2000.

Still, the biggest advantage is in look and feel, and ease of use.

On the commercial side, it's a no brainer if you are working with small businesses with no dedicated IT department.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled my hair out on support calls explaining to people how to find an incident or heaven forbid, export a video. We do a ton of training with people when we do an install. And leave our own documentation. But I make it very clear to them that the skills are perishable. if you don't try to pull video for six months, you are going to forget how to do it.

Two years later, I always get a phone call. Puts me in a bad spot. I don't want to hammer people with additional service fees after they spend a ton of money on having a system installed.

Same goes for family. Even my mother has no issues with exporting video.

Unifi only introduced ONVIF support recently. Right now, they support ONVIF Profile S. Getting AI events to pass directly to the NVR from China cams would require that Ubiquiti support ONVIF Profile T. No one is sure as to if this will ever happen. Apparently, there are some issues with the ONVIF standard being less than perfect, hence the reason that manufacturers tend to stick with their proprietary standards.
 
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Ookie said:
Right now, it's 1 per cam. It will be as many as 5 per AI port with future firmware upgrades.
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Tempting... but for 8MP (4K) Hikvision or Dahua cameras, it seems like each AI port will still only support one camera in the future?


From the Ubiquiti website...

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That is what they are saying right now. But no one knows. The one negative about Ubiquiti is that they tend to fly by the seat of their pants a bit.

Even if it ends up as 1 per camera, I have no issue with it. A 4K Dahua or Hik plus an AI Port works out the same price or cheaper than Ubiquiti's own 4K cameras. And as great as the software is, the Ubiquiti brand cams leave a lot to be desired.

All of this aside, I have little interest in 4K (8MP) cameras anymore.

Like many others, I was fooled in the past by nice looking static images. But motion is truly where the rubber meets the road. Especially with LPR and facial recognition.

For years, we have primarily used LTS (rebranded Hik). Mostly 4K (8MP). And LTS (Hik) NVRs. And unless a person or vehicle stopped, it was hit-or-miss in even the best lighting conditions.

We have recently been experimenting with the the EmpireTech (rebranded Dahua) cams that everyone here likes so much. As many of the members here have pointed out, the 4MP stuff tends to have much better light gathering capability. In order to eliminate motion blur, you need to run fast shutter speeds. Even with the serious security lighting we put in (think 1-2 stadium lights over a garage with motion sensors), the 8MP cams don't handle the shutter speeds we really want to use.

Right now, we are still playing with the mixed setups. But going forward, I have a feeling it's going to be all EmpireTech cams with Unifi. Everything will be 4MP with the possible exception of 1-2 4K (8MP) cams set up as broad overwatch.

Honestly, I am happy with this system to the point it makes me want to get back into the commercial game more aggressively. We had done less camera stuff in recent years, because I was never truly happy with what was out there. It was either reasonable prices with sketch software and security (Dahua, Hik), or incredibly priced high priced products that even some of our enterprise customers balked at.

$299 for a four drive NVR with RAID (e.g. a drive can fail and you don't lose video) is a game changer.

This setup is so good--and will only get better.
 
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I agree with everything you've said... I wish I had gone the 4MP EmpireTech route but wasn't aware when I started... got 8MP Hikvision.

I wonder why they don't (or if they will) have a 4/8/16 port version of the AI Port... seems awkward to have all separate devices.

The bit I see about the interface on the website does look good.
 
@Ookie how do you power your cameras? I am confused with Unifi. I thought they need multiple devices, routers, and whatnot just to have the cameras powered and connected to the NVR. I also read somewhere that they are trying to kill all third party cameras connections, so people use only their cameras. This is the reason I never moved in their ecosystem, it becomes expensive.

I am also confused with the hardware capacity. Hikvision needs much beefier hardware for deepmind AI, their iDS NVRs. How can a simple NVR from Unifi handle AI on 16 cameras simultaneously just by buying 16 x $200 = $3200 in licenses. Isn't there a hardware bottleneck?

Thanks for sharing your experience, very helpful.
 
You were given a lot of incorrect info. Like really off base stuff.

Yes, Ubiquiti does make networking equipment. And my experience has been fantastic. But you are by no means locked into their ecosystem.

You can run third party cameras with only a $299 Unifi NVR. No need for any other part of their ecosystem. As matter of fact, it won't even improve things.

I'm laughing at the concept of them trying to kill third party connections. Total nonsense. They just introduced the feature allowing them a couple of months ago.

How can a simple NVR from Unifi handle AI on 16 cameras simultaneously just by buying 16 x $200 = $3200 in licenses. Isn't there a hardware bottleneck?
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The simple NVR cannot handle AI alone.

The $200 is not for a license. Unifi does not have licensing fees. The AI Port is a physical hardware item, specifically designed to address the hardware bottleneck you refer to.

This video gives a good explanation.

 
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