Help with putting together a Dahua outdoor system

[je24]

I know these types of questions have been asked before and I have been searching/reading threads on here and not getting anywhere. There have been a few breakins in the area and I want to put together an outdoor survelliance system as quick as possible. I think I want to go with Dahua at least for the cameras, not sure about the NVR. I have a Qnap NAS so can use that if needed but sounds like other options are better. I have an ESXi server (with VPN) that I can add a virtual environment to run PC-based software. Not sure if a standalone NVR is a better option. Here are some of my requirements:
1.) 3-4 IP cameras, all PTZ and POE (so to run just one cable), 1080p okay 4K not really needed (kills disk space), need great night vision
2.) motion triggered - built-in to camera or separate system (read that in-camera may not be best???)
3.) iOS smartphone accessible and controllable - can use VPN if needed
4.) iOS notifications of motion events (not email - real-time notifications)
5.) I like the idea of SD card storage on the cameras in case the NVR/local storage is stolen during the breakin
6.) I really wanted to go wifi but cannot find anyone endorsing that. I have run ethernet a number of places in my house but the thought of getting to the eaves of the roof for the cameras does not sound like fun.
7.) the house is 2 story so if placed on the eaves they will be pretty high - is that too high for IR to work well?
8.) budget - probably around $300-$500 per camera from what I researched, no idea of the cost of a good NVR, PC-related already covered. I would like to stay around $1500 or so (3 cameras) but can stretch for better value/features.
9.) I like tinkering with things but for this I just want it to work reliably (not like the home automation stuff I am dealing with that does not work all the time)
10.) have to say the Ring system on the surface is enticing but not sure how well it works

Anyhow I know the veterans here are probably tired of these types of questions and want us newbies to search and find all this but I really need to figure this out rather quick and am hoping you all will have mercy on me!!!

Thanks in advance.

Jim

 

[nayr]

Does it sound like fun getting AC power under the eves either? cause its not going to run wireless.. you have to get power to it one way or another.. so PoE rules supreme.

Why 4 PTZ Cameras? You know a PTZ can only look at one thing at a time right, you'll get better coverage with more fixed cameras.

Motion triggered what? Recording? Notifications? Attack Droids?

Remember, disk space is cheap.. incredibly cheap.

if you want simple reliability a hardware NVR is hard to beat.. record continuously, flag motion for finding events, notify and trigger PTZ commands off hardwired alarm sensors.. they have hardware GPIO built in and you can interface it with your alarm/automation system with ease... you'll never miss recording anything, you wont have trouble searching through days of video for activity, and any notifications/alarms triggered will be based off real and reliable sensors instead of some video analytics that cries wolf when a dangerous looking cloud comes by.

 

[je24]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I think I have resigned myself that I will need to run ethernet to the cameras. What makes me cringe is there is not much to no space to access the eaves from in the attic so not sure how to run it. Guessing will have to drill from outside and fish the wire in that way and hopefully be able to grab it in the attic.

Motion triggered - my thought is to only have the cameras record when motion is detected and stop after either no motion or a set timeframe (not sure what the options are in the NVR/software), and when motion is detected by the camera is when a notification is sent to my phone (so I can then login and see what the camera is recording). A text message would do if a notification cannot be done.

Am open to an NVR. Any specific Dahua model to recommend?

Did not know the PTZ limitation - thought it was the same as fixed cameras (i.e. wide angle) but with the ability to zoom. is that not the case? Any recommended Dahua camera models?

I looked on Dahua's site hoping to find a "package solution" of an NVR and cameras but did not come across any.

Yeah I know disk space is cheap but was more thinking of 1080p should be okay plus streaming/viewing that over cellular will suck up data (unless the NVR can downsample 4K to 1080p). Unless 4K for surveillance is definitely worth it then would consider it.

Thanks

 

[nayr]

fiberglass fishing poles will help you alot.. you can push the wire to a higher point in the attic where you can reach it, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RV4T3U/ref=psdc_6396129011_t1_B005LW4CFG
pull a small string along with your wire so if you need to run a 2nd wire in the future you can just attach and pull it from inside.

If you only record on motion you risk missing important events, and notifications and txt messages coming off video motion is horrible because you can either tune it so every little thing sets it off, or you can detune it so you miss the majority of the activity you want.. Video Motion was originally just for saving some disk space, but now compression is much better and HDD's are cheap as dirt.. so its recommended you just record continuously and dont use it for alerts.. if you require sms messages of someone breaking into your house; you need an alarm system to do that.. you need zero false alarms or you'll be trained to ignore the messages within days.

They have the ability to zoom, but they wont do it automatically and follow activity.. unless your maning the PTZ or have something else controlling it.. its just a fixed camera w/a variable lens, and you can buy those for a fraciton of the cost of a full blown PTZ.. depends on how much zoom you require.

They are an OEM, not a retailer.. if you want a package go to Costo, pro's pick the camera best suited for each location instead of buying a handfull of identical cameras and trying to get them to work.

The cameras provide multiple streams; mainstream and substreams, the main high quality stream gets recorded.. and the substreams are a much lower resolution and can be used over remote links much easier.. a 720p video looks just as good as UHD video on your iPhone.

 

[Fastb]

je24,

Welcome to the forum.

Motion Detect (MD) by the camera is prone to many false alarms. eg:
- The 5 foot spider. Oh wait, that's a regular spider, but it's just inches from the camera!
- The moving shadows caused by limbs blowing.
- Shrubbery and tree motion/
- Moths, snow, falling leaves.
- Car headlights (if they sweep through the camera's view)

I spent time setting the MD threshold. I gave up. There is no ideal spot. The spider or moth near the camera will always trigger an MD event.

The PIR sensor in your motion detect driveway lights is more dependable. It trips on Infra Red (heat). The camera relies on image processing. Even more dependable is dual technology sensors (PIR + radar) such as the Bosch OD850f1 [url]http://benchmarkmagazine.com/intruder-test-external-space-detection/ [/URL]

Cam location & illumination: If only 3 to 4 cameras, then locating them is crucial. Then pick the right lens so the FOV coverage is optimal. (or spend a little more for a zoom-able camera, w/o Pan/Tilt) I grabbed a light bulb changer w/ extendable pole. I put the cam in the spring loaded spot for the bulb. Presto. Raise the cam up, find the ideal location, check FOV and coverage. If you're drilling and fishing 20' up in the air, you want to be sure of cam placement! Check at night, to see if additional IR illumination will be needed. If so, install and wire that at same time as the cam.

My WiFi Dahua cam needs to be power-cycled every 10 to 20 days. Even using the cam's built in reboot scheduler doesn't help. Fortunately, it has a POE interface. I'll soon run Cat 5 to replace the power cable. The wired Dahua cams have been rock steady, no power cycle needed.

Budget: $300 to $500 per camera is plenty. Even a $150 camera will perform well. $150 to $300 for NVR, depending on number of cams & features (like built in POE). Get 8 cam ports minimum. (Your current plan is 3 to 4 cams - leave some room for expansion). Advice: Pick a single vendor, avoid mix-n-match between vendors. eg: all Dahua, Hikvision, etc. The cams will play nice with the NVR....

#3, #4: iOS friendly: If the NVRs can send email, it can send a Text. You'll get notifications. With the right app, you can access the live view and recorded video. Check iGDMSS for example.

Break-ins is what you're concerned with. Monitored Alarms excel at protecting your house. Cameras are a nice compliment, but not a replacement. check videos at the "pics" section of this forum: https://www.ipcamtalk.com/forumdisplay.php/39-Camera-Captures

Option: Buy NVR and only 2 cams. Get familiar with coverage (FOV), image resolution (if a positive id of the burglar is your goal), view from rafters, etc. Then buy the next cam or two. Maybe with a different lens, MP sensor, camera form factor (bullet, turret, etc).


Have fun!

Fastb

 

[je24]

Thanks for the welcome and the very detailed reply.

So most of these cameras do not have PIR built-in and just rely on image processing? If so that is a bit of a bummer. I really would like to just install a camera instead of a camera and PIR at each location.

My goal with this setup is to have something that just works (no tinkering after initial setup, and initial setup is close to plug-n-play plus config) and lets me know when something is going on outside my house instead of me constantly checking or reviewing video footage (I looked at some of the capture videos and wondered how people found the video clips of someone like 2AM - image processing alerts or manually checking the recordings). I am okay with some false alarms and the image processing does not seem to be the best option for me as I have a lot of trees that would be in view and moving on a windy day.

Does the Dahua NVRs provide email notifications of events and if so as you mentioned texts also? Does it have to use a Dahua-based cloud service to send these, you have to point it to an email server or it is just built-in to the NVR (i.e., no external service required)?

I see you and nary list "4216" NVRs which to me would appear to be "one" model but there seems to be different versions of it. Is the 4216 the best choice and if so which specific version (4K and non-4K)? Does it support what I am looking for - mainly alerts/notifications, smart phone access/control/live view?

I am really lost when it comes to cameras. I guess I am hoping for someone to look at my requirements and say to buy either model XYZ, ABC, etc. There just seems to be too many options with subtle differences between them. And did not see a Dahua with PIR so if non-Dahua cameras have those will be open to look at those (but thought I read that Hikvision is going out of business or something). I guess my camera requirements are excellent motion detection, zoom, possibly pan/tilt (question below), very good night vision, dome or turret (same???) instead of bullet for a smaller footprint and a little less obvious, POE, adequate range since it will be installed in the eaves of a two story house (rectangular shaped, possibly one camera at each corner). If someone can suggest a few models based on that it would be greatly appreciated.

You mentioned zoom without pan/tilt. Just curious why you do not recommend PTZ? Seems to be the most flexible unless there is something I am missing.

As for the NVR probably will be okay with an 8ch so it would be greatly appreciated if I can get a few suggestions on which models of those to look at (based on requirements mentioned above). I would really like to get this figured out in the next week or so in order to get it installed before the weather gets worse.

Thanks again for the info

Jim

 

[nayr]

no outdoor cameras have built in PIR; many have external alarm inputs so you can hook up your own.. but outdoors the environments are so dynamic you often want a camera pointed one direction and a sensor pointed another (to limit its range)... indoor cameras come with PIR sensors built in, but you want wall to wall coverage.. also PIR sensors need to be kept out of direct sunlight to get em to last the long haul.. Indoors PIR is cheap and easy to make reliable, outdoors it requires some better sensors and proccesing to not trigger from bright lights, etc.

Phone providers provide email to txt services, yours will give you something like 5555555555@txt.att.net and then anything sending an email is capable of txt messages.. consult your mobile provider for details.

http://ipvm.com/calculator <-- keep ppf over 100 and use this to help you decide lens selection.. in the end the choice is yours, its your money, if you want to save and DIY then you need to learn this; I wont tell you what to buy.. others might tho.

A decent PTZ is like $500, A decent Motorized Varifocal (aka Zoom) Camera is like $150-200.. I have a couple PTZ's, they are great.. but only because I have a whole array of home automation devices controlling the PTZ all the time.. Ring my door bell or knock on my door, open a door/window/gate/mailbox and the PTZ will zoom in on your ass in a heartbeat.. that makes it worth the money.

the cost difference from 8ch to 16ch is minimal, like $30.. pay $30 now and basically never have to worry about running out of channels.. or start sweating it when you get your 6th or 7th camera up... I suggest you take it slow, buy a camera.. install it, learn from it.. repeat.. usually shipping is free so it makes no difference.

IMHO notification of activity outdoors is overrated, I have enough storage space for all my cameras to record continuously for over 3 weeks.. I review footage almost never, if something turns up missing or a neighbor has a problem.. I have 3 weeks to notice or be otherwise informed before its lost.. rarely do I need to go back more than a week or so.. thats where the built in motion detection helps, you have a timeline of activity marked and can flip through it quickly..

ie, lets say someone stole something out of my yard, lets check footage at noon every day until it re-appears.. then I know what day it vanished on, and can start checking all the yellow highlights in the timeline for someone taking it.. total time it takes to find something that vanished who knows when, 30mins or so.. though I do admit I spend most of my days infront of a live feed of all my cameras and that gets better results than recordings usually provide..

 

[Fastb]

JE24,

You say "I really would like to just install a camera instead of a camera and PIR at each location."
The camera and PIR don't have to be co-located. Even additional IR illuminators don't need to be co-located, but avoid shadows from illumination located too far away.

I have a retro-reflective optical sensor, and a laser light line. They are 20 ft and 50 ft from the cameras covering their respective areas of my property. People entering my property are detected - that's the point. So they're located by point of entry. Locating the sensor considers different factors as compared to locating cameras. Approach sensor and camera location separately.

Two of my sensors are wired to the Alarm Input on the NVR. Another sensor is wired to the Alarm Input on the camera. Wiring considerations drove that. Operationally, all 3 sensors can trigger alarms and mark the timeline in recorded video.

Yes, camera MD outdoors is low-value. You said "I have a lot of trees that would be in view and moving on a windy day." Some cameras allow MD masking. You can mask off certain portions of the image, and motion is ignored. In practice, this band-aid didn't help me much. Say your house-mounted camera masks off the moving shrubs. Well, when someone walks along, between the house and the shrubs, they'll be masked off.

Both 4K and non-4K Dahua NVRs will support what you're looking for - alerts/notifications, smart phone access/control/live view. I can't speak for other brands, I'm only personally familiar with Dahua.

Camera selection can be daunting. I'd say sort your requirements by importance.

You said "my camera requirements are excellent motion detection, zoom, possibly pan/tilt, very good night vision, dome or turret (same???) instead of bullet for a smaller footprint and a little less obvious, POE, adequate range"

MD: Camera can have excellent MD. The problem is the environment, not the camera. Exterior camera MD doesn't perform well
Pan/Tilt: Nayr makes an excellent point on cost. And on the difficulty of putting PTZ to use, unless you're gonna sit in front of the screen and pan and tilt the cam in rreal time..
Very Good Night Vision: Cameras are available, but you'll pay accordingly. Adding extra IR Ilumination is cheap and easy. With your cameras mounted 20ft high on eaves, it's likely you'll need more IR. Or more visible light (traditional floodlights, maybe with the common PIR motion detect to turn 'em on)
Dome: These are better for indoor use. Domes suffer from IR reflection at night, attract spiders (due to IR), and the plastic dome will degrade with UV (so shouldn't be mounted in the sun)
Bullet may be the form factor that could satisfy the requirement for "less obvious" (than turret).
POE: Yes. String one cable to each cam.
Adequate Range: That boils down to lens and MP. Follow nayr's advice and link. The site lets you load your actual property (from Google maps) into the tool to pick the right lens.

Jim, you're trying to serve two masters with one solution. ie: 1) Alarm (intruder detection) and 2) Surveillance (capturing video). I recommend you untangle the two. Approach them separately, in their own right.

Fastb

 

[Fastb]

je24,

Check this thread, it may be helpful
[h=1]Cam Location Pic (2.8mm or 4mm)?[/h]

 

[je24]

thanks nayr and Fastb for more great info. followed links and did more searching and here is what I am thinking of. nayr - I found a thread of a mini ptz you have and you mentioned it was around $200 or so (SD29204T-GN-W is the newer version from the end of that thread). if that is the case then I think I would go with 4 of those and the 4K 4216 NVR. The reason for the PTZs are this: would like to mount them at the corners of my house and be able to adjust in front of a screen instead of a ladder. Do not plan on constantly changing but rather tweaking when needed and if I am notified of something remotely I can adjust as needed.

I have to say I would love to know how you have a doorbell triggering a pan/zoom/track to the door location nayr - I would be interested in that. Which PTZ is doing that? Also what is your opinion of the SD29204T-GN-W? Does it sound like it will meet my needs (mainly good night vision range)?

Please let me know why those cameras and the nvr are not the best choice for what I mentioned I am looking for.

Edit: okay it seems like Dahua has so many NVR models and it is not easy (at least for me) to note the differences. I came across NVR 4432 4K which appears to do the same as the 4216 but have no idea what makes it different. A higher model number would seem to indicate it has "more" features but not sure if that is true.

So if that is a good setup now I need to figure out where to purchase. I notice some order from China and there are discussions of non-US firmware/English, etc. I would like the best price but want to make sure I am getting genuine, new products that are warrantied. Plus I do not want to spend $1000+ and be stuck with something that does not work. Then again I happened to be on Costco's site to see what they have and they do make it tempting.

Fastb - the laser light line how does that work? I am thinking a laser is a precise beam so does it act like a tripwire? Is it attached to the house or away from it?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[nayr]

the laser beams are like what you have in your garage to keep the motorized door from crushing you or your car..

Those Mini-Black Face PTZ's are not IP66 rated, and should only be used outside in the right conditions.. the WiFi versions are NOT PoE compatible and I would not suggest them.. when you find out wireless sucks you have no PoE.

FastB has the non 4k, I have the 4k.. they are roughly identical except mine has support for h265 video codecs whereas his does not.. I have a h265 camera, but its doing h264 because playing back the video is not something many of my devices are capable of.. probably a good idea to have it for future use; but its not a killer feature at this time.

 

[je24]

Did not notice the lack of IP66 on those cameras. How about the similar dome camera DH-SD22A204TN-GN (did not check price but should be similar)?

I gave up on wifi and resigned myself to running Ethernet but would like to stick with one device per location (just the camera, no other sensors, IR, etc).

Where is the best place to buy these? Prices are all over the place for these and not sure about the direct from China (just no experience with those vendors).

Which PTZ camera (and doorbell/automation) are you using for the doorbell zoom? I had various automation systems but none worked reliably until I just recently switched out the lights/switches for HomeKit compatible ones. So far works great but trigger setups are not as advanced or easy as other systems (when setting up a lot of them).

Thanks again.

 

[nayr]

no IR on that PTZ.. and its more expencive.

my front door camera is the mini black face ptz.

 

[je24]

argh, this is a bit frustrating - I mean you think you found exactly what you need and then it turns out not to be the case. Your more expensive PTZ does that have IR and if so how much do they cost? The mini PTZ that is not weatherproof have you had any issues with it mounted outside (I am guessing it is outside)? If it is under an eave will that be okay?

I checked Hikvision and they do not appear to have anything different. A quick search for outdoor PTZ IR (not outrageously expensive) showed a Swann. Not POE but network, have no idea about their system though. Want to get something good and reliable and not something just because it costs less.

Where do you recommend buying these things?

 

[nayr]

it'll cost about $500 for my big black face PTZ; perhaps a little less..

the mini-black face PTZ can be used outside if you can ensure it will stay dry.. I have a 3ft eave its mounted under and it remains dry even in the worst of storms.. I said in the other thread that if you can tape a piece of paper where you want the camera, and after a heavy storm that paper is still perfectly dry w/out water damage.. it will probably be fine.

I import mine from whoever has the best price on it, buyer protection is pretty good and when you import you dont get much warranty and support; so save as much money as possible.

 

[je24]

I am guessing the SD59212S-HN is the $500 PTZ you mentioned. If I got those then I would only need three to cover pretty much what I need. CCTV-Mall has the 20x (DAHUA SD59220S-HN) in stock for $418 (the 12x is actually more at $438 but out of stock - am I missing something why it would be more for less zoom?) but do not know anything about them if they are a good place to buy. As for warranty if I import them will Dahua void the warranty?

So how do I pry your doorbell setup out of you . You seem to be keeping that one a secret!

Thanks again

 

[Fastb]

je24,

Yes, the laser is a precise beam so it does act like a tripwire. I avoid the "tripwire" term, since that's the term used by Dahua for a feature built into their IVS cams. It's based on image processing, a "virtual" trip wire.

I use a real trip line, using laser.

I use the

Seco-Larm E-960-D90Q Twin Photo Beam Detectors https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002WV19DM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01 90ft range.

I circled the detector in the installation pic below. The transmitter is to the right, out of the view. Anybody or any vehicle will break the laser line. The NC contact is wired to NVR Local Alarm Input. This generates an email, with a snapshot from a cam on the far side of the driveway/parking area. (the pic below was clipped from that cam's FOV) The event is marked in the playback record timeline, to find it easily. Since I'm recording 24/7, I can review what happened before and after. The next alarm will be when they leave and break the laser line again. I have recorded video of what happened between those two alarms.

This scheme results in very few false alarms. MD was worthless. The driveway receives morning sun, then becomes shaded in the afternoon. Shadows dance across the pavement during the transition, caused by swaying branches. Instead of MD, I tried the IVS feature of "tripwire". This is superior, with fewer false alarms. But false alarms still occurred due to moths, blowing leaves, and moving shadows.

The laser line is too high to be tripped by dogs or raccoons. The delay is set to not trigger on falling leaves or branches. But the delay is short enough to catch someone running through the laser line.




I also use a retro-reflective light line. This has shorter range, but doesn't require power to both ends of the line.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001LFPB0M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Neither are co-located with their associated cams. But both sensors result in an email with snapshot. And strobe light. The mics pick up audio, which comes in handy sometimes....

 

[nayr]

yep its a total secret: https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php/14007-How-To-PTZ-Control-via-DoorBell-amp-NVR

check the specs, usually the lower zoom ones have a wider angle when zoomed all the way out.. alot of people perfer that when they dont have the range to use such long optics.. also longer optics let in less light so using a 12x where it can only see 12x distance will get better night images because the aperture is larger.

I bought my big black face one State Side too so I'd get a 3yr warranty.. never need it tho; Dahua is an OEM, they do not do warranty and support direct.. that is provided by the vendor you purchase from.. as a general rule of thumb, Retail products get direct manufacturer warranty; OEM products get Vendor supplied Warranty.

 

[je24]

thanks to both for all the info. many questions on all that but first trying to figure out where to buy this stuff. not finding many vendors selling those Dahua PTZs and cctv-mall appears to have the best selection (on the website at least, heard may not actually be in stock). Also not finding many review or info on them.

nayr - you said you got your ptz in the US, do you recall where?

I hear that buying from China you have to worry about making sure English firmware is available and can be upgraded along with PAL/NTSC.

Anyhow hoping I can get more help with where to buy. I am looking at spending $1500+ on this and really do not want to throw it away by buying the wrong thing at the wrong place.

Thanks again.

 

[Fastb]

je24,
I had similar sentiments. My initial purchases were from a US distributor. They provided good service: 1) when I needed to upgrade f/w, they provided the correct version. "Bricking" the nvr or cameras w/ wrong f/w was a concern. 2) when the IR cut filter was stuck, and daylight video was purple-ish. They replaced the cam.

However, that level of service comes at a price. So I just purchased a camera from aliexpress. http://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bb2quBdQ The vendor provides English f/w and NTSC format.

I'll see how that works out. I save enough $ to take the risk.

Fastb