Where is Dahua going with AI?

DDS4

n3wb
May 7, 2018
15
14
I see AI, AI-Lite and these WizMind stereo cameras that can detect falls and violence. It looks like various cameras have a subset of AI but not a complete picture. I'm looking to redo my current MileStone XProtect system from the ground up because the PC it is on is pretty much done and the cameras are dated, well except that awesome Vari-focal 2PM Starlight I bought from Empire Technology. But I would replace it as well if needed.

Or do I just roll my own with OpenCV setup and use Nvidia RTX Tensor cores for fast performance? I've been playing with ZoneMinder and EventServer on Ubuntu 20.24 and I'm not so sure about that. The 25 year old interface needs updated. If a specific camera layout and NVR would do a decent job that would be fine but I cannot figure out what Dahua is doing.

I'm looking for Tripwire, object removal, face detection (database of under 50 people) and License Plate Reader. It would be nice if it could identify dogs, cats, ducks, turtles, squirrels, snakes, raccoons, deer, fox and coyotes. Yes we have had all of those.
 
There's a consensus that AI is still BS at this time. However, I do think it has plenty of potential; won't be available via firmware updates, it will come as new models are announced as the years go by. Its a corporate thing; or else how will they make money? Dahua releases the models at a very slow pace. They don't want to get all the features in a hurry for one particular model otherwise sales will fall. Even in some models at this time, the specs are overall, i.e. more RAM, more internal storage for firmware, etc. You also need to spend a fortune on a new NVR that can handle these AI features. At the moment, most use IVS here which has been on Dahua models for many years now. Face detection works okay for detecting faces; but parameters need additional time to configure (i.e. face color, mask, gender, etc).

If you need new cameras, 2MP or 4MP Varifocal Starlight+ (notice the plus sign) should serve you well
 
If you need new cameras, 2MP or 4MP Varifocal Starlight+ (notice the plus sign) should serve you well
Yesterday I was looking at IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED and IPC-T5442TM-AS both are Starlight+ but one uses visible LEDs and the other is IR. Which is the winner? I guess visible light could be a deterrent but I've never seen that on a camera before. Vari-focal models would be nice but I don't see them anywhere. Perhaps I should upgrade the cameras and my PC and wait a few more years on the AI. I also want you to know I appreciate your signature.
 
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As far as I know, the AI is dependent on having a Dahua DVR as well. I use IVS trip wires but that’s about it. I would think you would be disappointed in the current state of AI. It’s not as good as the movies make it...

I have the IPC-T5442TM-AS. I didn’t want a LED. I needed a IR cam that can see in the night. Didn’t want to run a white LED all night long. If you want to do that might as well install a proper flood. If there is enough ambient light you could also trigger the LED to come on with motion as well if you wanted.
 
If you already have motion flood lights, the IPC-T5442TM-AS would be your best choice. However is now also a varifocal version model number ending in ZE (Varifocal Turret) which might benefit you if you don't want to tinker around with focal length. Compatible with PFA130E Junction Box

Yesterday I was looking at IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED and IPC-T5442TM-AS both are Starlight+ but one uses visible LEDs and the other is IR. Which is the winner? I guess visible light could be a deterrent but I've never seen that on a camera before. Vari-focal models would be nice but I don't see them anywhere. Perhaps I should upgrade the cameras and my PC and wait a few more years on the AI. I also want you to know I appreciate your signature.
 
If you already have motion flood lights, the IPC-T5442TM-AS would be your best choice. However is now also a varifocal version model number ending in ZE (Varifocal Turret) which might benefit you if you don't want to tinker around with focal length. Compatible with PFA130E Junction Box
Right now I have Sony cameras and one IPC-HDW5231R-ZE which gives rock solid coverage of my back deck area. Although I like the eyeball format the IPC-B5442E-ZE looks like a nice camera. I noticed it has 1 GB RAM while most others have 512 or 256.
I do have auto floods on my front and back and on the wooded side of my house I have a converted Metal-Halide lamp with this 6,800 lumen bulb in it This super bright light is on a dusk to dawn sensor. But I think I'll stick with vari-focal IR cameras plus they don't have a fixed aperture that I assume I can adjust.
 
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In a marketplace that is now well and truly saturated with installed cameras - AI is the next way of making money Dahua etc. have come up with to try and drive sales while tying everybody into only using their equipment/ecosystem from camera to network switch to NVR exclusively - AI will only be made to work properly when enough people start publicly criticising the fact that it does not work - but knowing Dahua they will probably instead release AI 2.0 Cameras/Equipment and tell everyone to buy another camera instead – Dahua “trust us you will love it – this 2.0 time”.


Always get the feeling that Cameras and NVRs are made and sold by people who have never actually been forced to use their own product on a daily basis 365 days of the year in real world conditions – but I digress.


If you look at some of Dahua’s newer camera releases like the IPC-HDW3549HP-AS-PV Dahua are trying to push cheapo flashing blue and red LED lights and a pair of white LED's like they are some absurd major step forward - criminals will just love being notified by a pair of pretty blue and red flashing LED's on the front of the camera where exactly they are being detected by the cameras IVS tripwires etc - and even worse where they are NOT being picked up by shortcomings in the camera OR a certain combination of clothing colours and backgrounds means they can walk straight past the camera and set off nothing on the camera - wire up an outdoor motion sensor to the camera alarm input terminals to try and avoid that Dahua camera shortcoming re selective colour blindness for motion/IVS.


Like if you read the serial number on the label on the bottom of the camera you can often then remotely log into that camera using Dahua’s etc. remote viewing application – which makes the whole thing a bit of a joke.


If anyone actually wants to tell thieves and criminals where they are and are not being picked up by the camera you can wire your own blue and red flashing LED's to your existing cameras output terminals and have the same silly effect for less than a Dollar in parts.



What Dahua and the rest of the camera manufacturers want to avoid is having to actually increase the size of the image sensor that sits behind the lens - all things being equal on a camera if you increase the image sensor size you will get better night time performance and better daytime performance but as Dahua and the rest of the camera manufacturers (camera assemblers would be a more accurate term) have to buy all their image sensors from various microchip manufacturers (and also Sony) it is a significant fixed cost buying the image sensor so it eats into your profits - the smaller image sensor you can sell to the public in your camera the more money/profit you earn per camera - according to Dahua’s marketing material for the IPC-HDW3549HP-AS-PV supposedly that has a bigger image sensor when compared to what Dahua were using in whatever unspecified comparison of image sensor sizes Dahua are making.


Can anybody explain why above 8 Megapixels there is no True Wide Dynamic Range (WDR) feature available on cameras available from anybody - meaning on the image sensor chip itself (which is supposedly the ultimate according to the camera makers) so if you buy a 12 Megapixel camera you have to make do with Digital Wide Dynamic Range (DWDR) which according to Dahua etc. is inferior – have never found out the reason for 8 Megapixels apparently being the limit for WDR - OR is it because at 12 Megapixels the image sensor has become big enough (and hopefully the individual pixels as well) that WDR is redundant at 12 Megapixels due to the increase of image sensor size? Most 12MP cameras spec sheets say they need less light than an equivalent 8MP.


Axxon Next - the Russian NVR software company have an interesting take by having a firmware plugin that you install into some of Dahua's 12 Megapixel range of cameras that Axxon say does the AI processing within the camera itself and passes the AI results over the network to the PC running Axxon Next - there are free trial versions of the Russian software. Axxon also gives away NVR software licences in Russia when you buy certain cameras.



When I had a go at the Axxon software a couple of years ago it worked but then would stop working in terms of reacting to cameras motion detection outputs (IVS and Motion) so the Russians remoted in to the PC made it work and then it would stop working again for no known reason - that was happening with and without the 12MP camera firmware plug in also on 8MP cameras that cannot take the plug in so we dropped the Russians - but is an interesting concept.



Point being if you can do as much AI processing as possible in the cameras own dedicated image processing hardware there are great efficiency gains to be had - not to mention that as you are processing the raw video image before the in camera compression with H264 or H265 and before further manipulating the raw camera image data into a network IP stream you are getting greater AI accuracy by processing the image data at its most raw and original level - obviously you also need virtually no PC CPU power to run that kind of AI because the cameras themselves are doing 95% of the AI work - so the theory is fantastic it just does not yet work reliably enough to use.



What would really terrify Dahua etc. would be if opensource firmware became available for their camera ranges - then the possibility of backporting new features to old models etc. would mean that the camera makers present business model would be finished – the camera Firmware security updates that Dahua grudgingly releases are probably more to lock opensource firmware out of Dahua cameras and NVR’s than to lock computer hackers out of the cameras!


For an example of mostly opensource firmware take a look at Linux set top boxes – for instance the Vu+ Duo2 – you can load 30 plus different firmware images on that as an alternative to the factory image from Vu+ if only cameras and NVRs went the same way – it is notable that the high end (above 5000 series) Dahua NVR’s are all rackmount PC’s running Linux.
 
There's a reason why the US government doesn't want to use Dahua and Hikvision equipment; China is one thing, but the other factor is in the instability in both company's product portfolios in the grand scheme of things. Both companies employ small incremental upgrades between successive models; the first question raised by a government employee's mind is, why the hell can't Dahua / Hikvision just do proper research and development (R&D) then sell this damn thing. Customers are essentially guinea pigs not just for these companies but for others as well (that includes US-based companies). As consumers, we want to deploy these cameras in fully functional environments. How dare you tell us to test this model when we literally just spent "xxx" amount of dollars purchasing this model based on the reviews (some half-baked), expecting nothing but the best; then we find out that the AI Marketing is a essentially truly just a metaphorical scam. That's why I strongly recommend to only buy the cameras you need, use them for a few years, and if the need necessitates, then perform a total upgrade. Otherwise, save your hard-earned money for something else; invest them into retirement! The only way these off-shore companies can stay afloat in this volatile atmosphere is make subtitle changes to their popular models (release some trash models as well) and then make a profit off your hard-earned money. This could damage Dahua's and Hikvision's reputation especially when they release models without properly and thoroughly testing (Recall issues brought up last year, from poorly-locking balls [QC issue] due to increased demand, to Auto-tracking failure, to even poor feedback by ipcamtalk members on Dahua's AI NVR). This forum isn't necessarily a test-bed. It comprises of the everyday consumer that just wants the damn thing to work and to get the best out of its value. Believe it or not, you get what you pay for. Bosch invests millions of dollars in their R&D, that their cameras simply work, but far exceed our budget. Their image sensors may be vastly superior, but lacks the cost to value ratio. Oh, and Bosch is Made in China too; it doesn't matter where these cameras are made in. What matters is the company philosophy and what consumers expect to get out of it.

The best part about Andy's presence on this forum is that he introduces and sells only the models that he recommends. He doesn't sell trash. Our feedback on Dahua / Hikvision products can only go so far, Andy is able to forward our concerns straight up to the product engineering department. Generally, its profits before people, but with Andy's presence, this stance is in the middle; he will caution people before buying any specific model so kudos to him. :)

In a marketplace that is now well and truly saturated with installed cameras - AI is the next way of making money Dahua etc. have come up with to try and drive sales while tying everybody into only using their equipment/ecosystem from camera to network switch to NVR exclusively - AI will only be made to work properly when enough people start publicly criticising the fact that it does not work - but knowing Dahua they will probably instead release AI 2.0 Cameras/Equipment and tell everyone to buy another camera instead – Dahua “trust us you will love it – this 2.0 time”.


Always get the feeling that Cameras and NVRs are made and sold by people who have never actually been forced to use their own product on a daily basis 365 days of the year in real world conditions – but I digress.


If you look at some of Dahua’s newer camera releases like the IPC-HDW3549HP-AS-PV Dahua are trying to push cheapo flashing blue and red LED lights and a pair of white LED's like they are some absurd major step forward - criminals will just love being notified by a pair of pretty blue and red flashing LED's on the front of the camera where exactly they are being detected by the cameras IVS tripwires etc - and even worse where they are NOT being picked up by shortcomings in the camera OR a certain combination of clothing colours and backgrounds means they can walk straight past the camera and set off nothing on the camera - wire up an outdoor motion sensor to the camera alarm input terminals to try and avoid that Dahua camera shortcoming re selective colour blindness for motion/IVS.


Like if you read the serial number on the label on the bottom of the camera you can often then remotely log into that camera using Dahua’s etc. remote viewing application – which makes the whole thing a bit of a joke.


If anyone actually wants to tell thieves and criminals where they are and are not being picked up by the camera you can wire your own blue and red flashing LED's to your existing cameras output terminals and have the same silly effect for less than a Dollar in parts.



What Dahua and the rest of the camera manufacturers want to avoid is having to actually increase the size of the image sensor that sits behind the lens - all things being equal on a camera if you increase the image sensor size you will get better night time performance and better daytime performance but as Dahua and the rest of the camera manufacturers (camera assemblers would be a more accurate term) have to buy all their image sensors from various microchip manufacturers (and also Sony) it is a significant fixed cost buying the image sensor so it eats into your profits - the smaller image sensor you can sell to the public in your camera the more money/profit you earn per camera - according to Dahua’s marketing material for the IPC-HDW3549HP-AS-PV supposedly that has a bigger image sensor when compared to what Dahua were using in whatever unspecified comparison of image sensor sizes Dahua are making.


Can anybody explain why above 8 Megapixels there is no True Wide Dynamic Range (WDR) feature available on cameras available from anybody - meaning on the image sensor chip itself (which is supposedly the ultimate according to the camera makers) so if you buy a 12 Megapixel camera you have to make do with Digital Wide Dynamic Range (DWDR) which according to Dahua etc. is inferior – have never found out the reason for 8 Megapixels apparently being the limit for WDR - OR is it because at 12 Megapixels the image sensor has become big enough (and hopefully the individual pixels as well) that WDR is redundant at 12 Megapixels due to the increase of image sensor size? Most 12MP cameras spec sheets say they need less light than an equivalent 8MP.


Axxon Next - the Russian NVR software company have an interesting take by having a firmware plugin that you install into some of Dahua's 12 Megapixel range of cameras that Axxon say does the AI processing within the camera itself and passes the AI results over the network to the PC running Axxon Next - there are free trial versions of the Russian software. Axxon also gives away NVR software licences in Russia when you buy certain cameras.



When I had a go at the Axxon software a couple of years ago it worked but then would stop working in terms of reacting to cameras motion detection outputs (IVS and Motion) so the Russians remoted in to the PC made it work and then it would stop working again for no known reason - that was happening with and without the 12MP camera firmware plug in also on 8MP cameras that cannot take the plug in so we dropped the Russians - but is an interesting concept.



Point being if you can do as much AI processing as possible in the cameras own dedicated image processing hardware there are great efficiency gains to be had - not to mention that as you are processing the raw video image before the in camera compression with H264 or H265 and before further manipulating the raw camera image data into a network IP stream you are getting greater AI accuracy by processing the image data at its most raw and original level - obviously you also need virtually no PC CPU power to run that kind of AI because the cameras themselves are doing 95% of the AI work - so the theory is fantastic it just does not yet work reliably enough to use.



What would really terrify Dahua etc. would be if opensource firmware became available for their camera ranges - then the possibility of backporting new features to old models etc. would mean that the camera makers present business model would be finished – the camera Firmware security updates that Dahua grudgingly releases are probably more to lock opensource firmware out of Dahua cameras and NVR’s than to lock computer hackers out of the cameras!


For an example of mostly opensource firmware take a look at Linux set top boxes – for instance the Vu+ Duo2 – you can load 30 plus different firmware images on that as an alternative to the factory image from Vu+ if only cameras and NVRs went the same way – it is notable that the high end (above 5000 series) Dahua NVR’s are all rackmount PC’s running Linux.
 
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Some of their models (especially older models) are Made in Portugal (especially BNC models). I've seen some assembled in Germany as well. However, some of their newer models are Made in China. Can even verify through ebay listings I've stumbled over in the past

1595078270880.png

Bosch has new turret on their list as well, but most of their cameras are either dome or bullet foam factor

edit: looks like Axis is moving away from China

There are some Bosch models I've seen Made in China labels on them. However, their main lineup is likely still Made in Portugal, however, I think that varies from market to market

 
I did not want to confuse my ask so I did not initially post this but Dahua does offer plugins and custom firmware for Milestone XProtect.
Look here Find latest technology for your XProtect® VMS | Milestone Systems
  • People FlowControl Plugin
  • Face Recognition Plugin
  • Thermal Body Temperature Monitoring Plugin
  • HeatMap Plugin
  • People Counting Plugin
  • Metadata Plugin <- this is the one provides perimeter & intrusion and tripwire
For example for the Metadata plugin here is the requirements:
Specification
Required Zhejiang Dahua Technology Co., Ltd product(s)
Dahua 7/5 series AI Camera: DH-IPC-HF7442F DH-IPC-HF7842F DH-IPC-HF7442F-FR DH-IPC-HFW7442H-Z DH-IPC-HFW7442H-Z4 DH-IPC-HFW7842H-Z DH-IPC-HFW7442H-ZFR DH-IPC-HFW7442H-Z4FR DH-IPC-HDBW7442H-Z DH-IPC-HDBW7442H-Z4 DH-IPC-HDBW7842H-Z DH-IPC-HDBW7442H-ZFR DH-IPC-HDBW7442H-Z4FR DH-IPC-HF5241E-E DH-IPC-HF5442E-E DH-IPC-HF5541E-E DH-IPC-HDBW5241E-ZE DH-IPC-HDBW5241E-ZHE DH-IPC-HDBW5241E-Z5E DH-IPC-HDBW5442E-ZE DH-IPC-HDBW5442E-ZHE DH-IPC-HDBW5541E-ZE DH-IPC-HDBW5541E-Z5E DH-IPC-HFW5241E-ZE DH-IPC-HFW5241E-ZHE DH-IPC-HFW5241E-Z5E DH-IPC-HFW5241E-Z12 DH-IPC-HFW5442E-ZE DH-IPC-HFW5442E-ZHE DH-IPC-HFW5541E-ZE DH-IPC-HFW5541E-Z5E DH-IPC-HDPW5241G-Z DH-IPC-HDPW5442G-Z DH-IPC-HDPW5541G-Z DH-IPC-HDBW5241R-S DH-IPC-HDBW5241R-ASE DH-IPC-HDBW5442R-S DH-IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE DH-IPC-HDBW5541R-S DH-IPC-HDBW5541R-ASE DH-IPC-HDW5241TM-AS DH-IPC-HDW5442TM-AS DH-IPC-HDW5541TM-AS DH-IPC-HFW5241T-S DH-IPC-HFW5241T-ASE DH-IPC-HFW5442T-S DH-IPC-HFW5442T-ASE DH-IPC-HFW5541T-S DH-IPC-HFW5541T-ASE DH-IPC-HFW5241E-S DH-IPC-HFW5442E-S DH-IPC-HFW5541E-S DH-IPC-HFW5241T-AS-PV DH-IPC-HFW5541T-AS-PV DH-IPC-HDW5241H-AS-PV DH-IPC-HDW5541H-AS-PV DH-IPC-HDW5241TM-AS-LED DH-IPC-HDW5442TM-AS-LED DH-IPC-HFW5241T-AS-LED DH-IPC-HFW5442T-AS-LED DH-IPC-HDBW5442E-Z4E DH-IPC-HFW5442E-Z4E DH-IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI DH-IPC-HFW5442T-ASE-NI DH-IPC-HDBW5242R-ASE-MF DH-IPC-HFW5242T-ASE-MF DH-IPC-HF5242E-E-MF DH-IPC-HFW5242E-ZE-MF DH-IPC-HDBW5242E-ZE-MF DH-IPC-HDPW5242G-Z-MF

I did not bother mentioning this because I figured it would overly complicate any support from Andy due to the custom firmware. The other is it says it is verified with the Corporate version so I doubt it works with the free version.

Here is Dahua's Wiki docs on this DahuaWiki

One reason I used Milestone for about the past decade was I configured it to write to a local SSD then automatically move the data in a sequential fashion to HDD via a timed based or capacity based event. My old system used a then new Samsung 830 SSD which I think was nearly Samsung's first consumer SSD line. I think I wrote like 12 Petabytes to it over the years and it still works. Viewing recorded video was very responsive since the disks were not messing with IO from several cameras.

For the cameras I did look at Arecont Vision back in the day as they had big sensor cameras but with the extra cost of the sensor and the huge cost requirements of the optics it was expensive. Bosch had nothing like that back then.
 
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3000i and 4000i series at least are "Made in China", The higher series products are at least labeled "Portugal". But how much more than assembly has been really produced there? Just mentioned it to point out it's not all black or white.
Where is Dahua going with AI? I think they fulfill the demands but where they get the demands from? I personally do not need or use the AI functions of my IPC-HFW5842H-ZHE but it was significantly more
expensive than all my Dahua cams before. This comes from the stronger SOC and more memory needed for this AI stuff. Problem is for me: they sell the 1/1.8" sensor in combination with F1.2 lens only with these for me useless AI functions. I still hope they change this product politics again and bring some "ultra-lite" series or maybe this jorney ends for me with these kits and just a case from Dahua: US $263.0 |UHD Sony Starvis IMX226 Hi3519 12MP 8MP 4K IP Camera Module+POE Board+Cable+3.6 11mm Auto Focus Zoom Lens SIP E226KMPLC 3611|ip camera module|camera modulefocus zoom lens - AliExpress
 
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... It would be nice if it could identify dogs, cats, ducks, turtles, squirrels, snakes, raccoons, deer, fox and coyotes. Yes we have had all of those...
I use Camect (DVR) which has great AI object detection and is not cloud based. I could provide some good links if desired. Here's a recent list of objects that can be selected.
Screenshot_20200718-102518_Chrome.jpg
 
Very nice, thanks for posting! This you can call "AI" but the product itself is too limited, max. 24MP is not enough, Celeron J3455 (from 2016) is old and weak. I wish they would release this software only unbound to some "must be as small as possible" case and hardware. It shows the direction and what is possible today without special hardware.
 
It'd be nice if these cameras can diagnose a patient as either having a COVID-19 or just the common cold or flu

Pun intended
 
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I use Camect (DVR) which has great AI object detection and is not cloud based. I could provide some good links if desired. Here's a recent list of objects that can be selected.
Camect seems very interesting; pretty unique it can handle sophisticated AI for 24MP worth of camera's with just a simple J3455 CPU.
But you can hardly find anything about it online.
For starters; I haven't seen anything about the GUI. What's the app like. Is there some kind of timeline to playback all footage? How are push notifications handled?
All those things never to be found.
 
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Very nice, thanks for posting! This you can call "AI" but the product itself is too limited, max. 24MP is not enough, Celeron J3455 (from 2016) is old and weak. I wish they would release this software only unbound to some "must be as small as possible" case and hardware. It shows the direction and what is possible today without special hardware.
Regarding more power, this older post may help. Click here

The developer would need to be contacted for current status.
 
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