Hardware recommendations - VM/Bare Metal for BI+Deepstack - CPU/GPU upgrade needed?

Stehle88

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Hi!
As my first post here, my question is what hardware would be needed to run Blue Iris + Deepstack for AI.
I would be for 1 or at maximum 2 Reolink 5MP cameras (RLC-410).

The current hardware i would have available are either:
1. Proxmox-VM with up to 8C/16T Zen1 host and up to 16GB (out of 32GB) provisioned RAM. No GPU passthrough of any kind. VM on SSD, Video storage on SAMBA Server in LAN.
2. Bare Metal on a 10th Gen Intel Pentium 2C/4T with 16GB RAM. OS on SSD, Video storage on SAMBA Server in LAN. No discrete GPU, only Intel HD 610 iGPU (H264/H265 decode/encode).

Is this feasible, or do i need CPU and/or GPU upgrades? And if yes, what would be the a good fit performance, and bang for buck-wise then?

Thanks in advance!
 

wittaj

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For two cameras, a 4th generation is fine. A member here is running 50 cameras on a 4th gen at 30% CPU and another member is running 18 cameras with Deepstack on a 3rd generation at 15%CPU...

You will soon realize that Reolinks do not work well with Blue Iris and is even worse with DeepStack. There is some beta software Reolink put out (you can search the forum for a link), that is supposed to help, but nobody has come back to the forum to mention if it actually fixes the issue.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either.

Blue Iris and Reolinks do not work well together, but the same principles applies for almost any low end consumer grade camera. It is just Reolinks is one of the more consumer end cameras people buy and come to this site as to why it is pointed out often about. I have a cheapo camera for overview purposes so it doesn't matter, but it exhibits this same behavior even though in the settings I can set an iframe...

This was a screenshot of a member here where they had set these cameras to 15FPS within the cameras (and look some of the sub FPS were dropped to 5 and KEY of 0.25 which is a recipe for missed motion):

1638963936767.png



Now look at the key - that is the iframes ratio. Blue Iris works best when the FPS and the iframes match. Now this is a ratio, so it should be a 1.00 if it matches the FPS. The iframes not matching (that you cannot fix or change with a reolink) is why they miss motion in Blue Iris and why people have problems. This is mainly why people are having issues with these cameras and there are many threads showing the issues people have with this manufacturer and Blue Iris. It is these same games that make the camera look great as a still image or video but turn to crap once motion is introduced.

The Blue Iris developer has indicated that for best reliability, sub stream frame rate should be equal to the main stream frame rate and these cameras cannot do that and there is nothing you can do about that with these cameras... The iframe rates (something these cameras do not allow you to set) should equal the FPS, but at worse case be no more than double. This example shows the cameras going down to a keyrate of 0.25 means that the iframe rates are over 4 times the FPS and that is why motion detection is a disaster with these cameras and Blue Iris...A value of 0.5 or less is considered insufficient to trust for motion triggers reliably...we have seen people come here where the reo/BI combo missed them pulling their car into their garage, so it would probably miss your little thief LOL.

A key of 0.25 means that if the object can be in and off of your camera view in under 4 seconds, it will miss the motion. Folks have seen the key drop to 0.10 with these cams, which means if an object is not on your screen for longer than 10 seconds, it will miss the motion.

Compounding the matter even worse...motion detection is based on the substream and look at the substream FPS - they dropped down to below 6 FPS with an iframe/key rate of 0.25 - you will miss motion most of the time with that issue...DeepStack probably won't work at all...

Now compare above to mine and cameras that follow industry standards that allow you to actually set parameters and they don't manipulate them. You will see that my FPS match what I set in the camera, and the 1.00 key means the iframe matches:

1638964131845.png



Return them if you can.

Here is the unofficial thread showing all the issues folks have with Reolinks. Despite our repeated attempts to ask people to share a good quality night time motion video, as you will see, it doesn't exist. If all you care about knowing is what time something happened, then maybe these are the right cameras if the person is in the field of view long enough, but you will never be able to IDENTIFY them...

 

Stehle88

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For two cameras, a 4th generation is fine. A member here is running 50 cameras on a 4th gen at 30% CPU and another member is running 18 cameras with Deepstack on a 3rd generation at 15%CPU...

You will soon realize that Reolinks do not work well with Blue Iris and is even worse with DeepStack. There is some beta software Reolink put out (you can search the forum for a link), that is supposed to help, but nobody has come back to the forum to mention if it actually fixes the issue.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either.

Blue Iris and Reolinks do not work well together, but the same principles applies for almost any low end consumer grade camera. It is just Reolinks is one of the more consumer end cameras people buy and come to this site as to why it is pointed out often about. I have a cheapo camera for overview purposes so it doesn't matter, but it exhibits this same behavior even though in the settings I can set an iframe...

This was a screenshot of a member here where they had set these cameras to 15FPS within the cameras (and look some of the sub FPS were dropped to 5 and KEY of 0.25 which is a recipe for missed motion):

1638963936767.png



Now look at the key - that is the iframes ratio. Blue Iris works best when the FPS and the iframes match. Now this is a ratio, so it should be a 1.00 if it matches the FPS. The iframes not matching (that you cannot fix or change with a reolink) is why they miss motion in Blue Iris and why people have problems. This is mainly why people are having issues with these cameras and there are many threads showing the issues people have with this manufacturer and Blue Iris. It is these same games that make the camera look great as a still image or video but turn to crap once motion is introduced.

The Blue Iris developer has indicated that for best reliability, sub stream frame rate should be equal to the main stream frame rate and these cameras cannot do that and there is nothing you can do about that with these cameras... The iframe rates (something these cameras do not allow you to set) should equal the FPS, but at worse case be no more than double. This example shows the cameras going down to a keyrate of 0.25 means that the iframe rates are over 4 times the FPS and that is why motion detection is a disaster with these cameras and Blue Iris...A value of 0.5 or less is considered insufficient to trust for motion triggers reliably...we have seen people come here where the reo/BI combo missed them pulling their car into their garage, so it would probably miss your little thief LOL.

A key of 0.25 means that if the object can be in and off of your camera view in under 4 seconds, it will miss the motion. Folks have seen the key drop to 0.10 with these cams, which means if an object is not on your screen for longer than 10 seconds, it will miss the motion.

Compounding the matter even worse...motion detection is based on the substream and look at the substream FPS - they dropped down to below 6 FPS with an iframe/key rate of 0.25 - you will miss motion most of the time with that issue...DeepStack probably won't work at all...

Now compare above to mine and cameras that follow industry standards that allow you to actually set parameters and they don't manipulate them. You will see that my FPS match what I set in the camera, and the 1.00 key means the iframe matches:

1638964131845.png



Return them if you can.

Here is the unofficial thread showing all the issues folks have with Reolinks. Despite our repeated attempts to ask people to share a good quality night time motion video, as you will see, it doesn't exist. If all you care about knowing is what time something happened, then maybe these are the right cameras if the person is in the field of view long enough, but you will never be able to IDENTIFY them...

WOW! Thanks for your fast and super-comprehensive answer!
Sadly i can not return the cameras, but i can sell them at a small loss on Ebay and move on.
What would be a good alternative? I just need an indoor camera with a pretty wide angle lens to monitor the entry door in corridor of my flat. To detect IF someone enters, and with enough clarity from 1-2 meters away to identifiy the intruder (day and night, but at night the zigbee motion sensors will turn on light with a Home Assistant routine anyway).
Cost under 100€ if possible, and if not as cheap as possible.
For example i just searched for Hikvision cams on Aliexpress, and found those. Would they work and be a good choice?
DS-2CD2043G0-I:
Hikvision DS 2CD2043G0 I 4MP Kugel IP Kamera PoE H.265 + IR CCTV Video Überwachung Mit SD Card Slot IP67 30m IR Hik Verbinden|hikvision h.265|ip camera poeip camera - AliExpress
DS-2CD2143G2-IU:
Original Hikvision Überwachung DS 2CD2143G2 IU IP 4MP POE Vandal Gebaut in Mic Fixed Dome Netzwerk Kamera|Surveillance Cameras| - AliExpress

To my question concerning GPU: So do i understand this correctly; BI and Deepstack can both run without any type of GPU acceleration if the CPU is fast enough in my case of only 1 or 2 cameras max?
This would be amazing news in the current GPU shortage..
 

wittaj

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Most here would stay away from those cameras as they are 4MP on a 1/3" sensor. That is an economy camera for those chasing MP over quality (surprisingly they do not go hand-in-hand with the general consumer....) A 2MP would outperform it at night.

But for indoors and a known tight area, it would probably be ok as you would get infrared bounce off of the walls.

Do keep in mind that when the lights kick on, there is a momentary blinding of the camera as it switches from B/W to color.

GPU is not needed to run BI or Deepstack. With the addition of the substreams option in BI, GPU for BI purposes went away and in fact in some recent updates, folks have had issues using hardware acceleration (GPU), so they simply disabled it.

A GPU for Deepstack purposes will speed up Deepstack return times, but for one or two cameras, the time shouldn't be an issue. Especially with a 10th gen.

A ran a lot of cameras with Deepstack on a 4th gen without a GPU just fine.
 

Stehle88

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Most here would stay away from those cameras as they are 4MP on a 1/3" sensor. That is an economy camera for those chasing MP over quality (surprisingly they do not go hand-in-hand with the general consumer....) A 2MP would outperform it at night.

But for indoors and a known tight area, it would probably be ok as you would get infrared bounce off of the walls.

Do keep in mind that when the lights kick on, there is a momentary blinding of the camera as it switches from B/W to color.

GPU is not needed to run BI or Deepstack. With the addition of the substreams option in BI, GPU for BI purposes went away and in fact in some recent updates, folks have had issues using hardware acceleration (GPU), so they simply disabled it.

A GPU for Deepstack purposes will speed up Deepstack return times, but for one or two cameras, the time shouldn't be an issue. Especially with a 10th gen.

A ran a lot of cameras with Deepstack on a 4th gen without a GPU just fine.
Thanks again for your kind help! And yes, i forgot that the pixel size of the tiny sensors is so small.. I found a 2MP model for around 70€, that would be perfect then i guess:
Hikvision 2MP DS 2CD1123G0 I Webcam 1080P HD Mini Camera Night Vision Security Outdoor IP Camera P2P Hik Connect APP Upgrade POE| | - AliExpress

And thanks for clearing up my confusion about the GPU acceleration! I feared i would have to spend many 100s of € in this crazy market to get a CUDA capable GPU.. I will try out both my Proxmox and bare metal options, maybe even a VM will do the trick!
Thanks again!
 

wittaj

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Certainly better than the reolinks :lmao:

For your application it should be fine.
 
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