Need LPR advice

[ArmoredDragon]

Had a robbery happen at a neighbor's house a few hours ago:



Perp was in the uhaul truck, followed them home from the bank, robbed them at gunpoint, even fired shots but nobody was injured.

Sadly, this is the best I have of the license plate:



AFAIK the police don't have any leads yet. Nonetheless, I think it's probably time I get a pair of LPR cameras. Trying to spend less than $200 per camera. I think what would be optimal is if I can spot the plates from 110 feet away, and I'd need about an 11 degree angle. I don't really need any automatic reading capability or anything like that, just being able to play back the video and read a plate later with my own eyes is enough. Any particular model ideal for this? Obviously need both day and night time visibility, ideally with color during the day.

BTW something that's killing me right now is that these cameras and my NVR require internet explorer to work, which is about to get much more difficult for me to use at all. I don't suppose there are any firmware hacks I can use to resolve this? FWIW my NVR is Lorex N841A8, cameras are all Lorex E891AB.

 

[wittaj]

That sucks!

At 110 feet away, you need the 5241E-Z12E that is $250 per camera.

Keep in mind that LPR is as much an art as it is a science. It is all about optical zoom, not digital, especially at night. And proper shutter speed. The Z12E is the cheapest they come with that much optical zoom for 110 feet.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera:

Make sure you look at the LPR subforum:

LPR

Licence Plate Reader cameras

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As well as these threads:

New to LPR? Considerations Before You Begin

Thought I would throw together a post on my experiences so far with LPR in an effort to help others that are considering running down that rabbit hole. There are some practical considerations you should know about LPR. I am approaching this from the position of using Blue Iris and Plate...

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LPR Case Study: Scoping, Planning, Proof of Concept, Installation, & Results

Introduction This thread is about my journey into LPR (License Plate Recognition) after having about 18 months of experience with IP cams and having quite a bit of my system finished. I am not an expert on LPR, or IP cameras either. But I have spent a lot of time working with my system and...

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Use of Overview and LPR Cams to Document Midnight Vehicle Distributing Offensive Flyers on Lawns

We were out of town and I was checking my cams remotely one morning and noticed one of the Deputies that regularly patrol my subdivision had been at my front door. She has come to me a few times requesting video as she knows I have fairly good coverage of the streets at my corner. I noticed that...

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The best way is to get into the camera GUI. To get into the camera GUI, you need to first access the NVR GUI by going to a computer and opening up a browser (preferably Internet Explorer but Pale Moon will work as well) and type in the IP address of the NVR and login that way. Next go into the camera settings page on the NVR and look for the Microsoft e Web Browser and select it and it will go to the camera GUI (photo credit bigredfish from his PSA thread). This is how you can still use explorer. Your screen may look a little different to get into the camera gui and see if doing it this way gets you access to some other features the NVR is blocking - do not worry about the Port number and circle as that was from another issue someone posted.

Simply select the blue IE icon and it will go to the camera GUI and from there you can set the camera parameters. This is for a Dahua NVR, but Lorex is Dahua OEM and my neighbors looks very similar and this is how we get into his.

 

[ArmoredDragon]

I want to be able to ditch internet explorer completely though, i.e. eliminate it 100% from the work flow. These newer firmwares don't do that?

Also one thing I should qualify is that I don't care if the plate reading is automatic, just so long as I can play back the video later and spot it is fine. And will the 5241E-Z12E be able to work with my existing NVR or will I need a new one?

 

[wittaj]

I want to be able to ditch internet explorer completely though, i.e. eliminate it 100% from the work flow. These newer firmwares don't do that?

Sadly net yet.

But try Pale Moon - many with an NVR have been able to use that to get into the NVR interface and then use Explorer baked into the NVR to access the rest - what is wrong with that? That isn't using Explorer on your computer then.

Some have had success with IE tab add-on, and others haven't.

Internet Explorer

Question for you guys, with the upcoming demise of Internet Explorer on June 15th what browser are you guys planning to use for configuring camera settings? I've tried Chrome and it half way works, I can log into the camera but can't get into the settings, so it's not gonna work for me once IE...

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[samplenhold]

I want to be able to ditch internet explorer completely though, i.e. eliminate it 100% from the work flow. These newer firmwares don't do that?

The newer Dahua firmware, the one that would come with the 5241 Z12 that @wittaj recommended, will use Edge just fine. I use Edge for the settings in the cam without any problems. I have also tried it with PaleMoon, Chrome, and Firefox, which all acted the same as Edge.

Wittaj linked a couple of my threads that might help you with your install and planning. Your distances are a little further out than mine, but you have a better angle. The Z12 on that cam will do 110' just fine.



Realize that it would be important to plan and take some shots with a camera or cell phone as cars come by to see if you could get a good shot. Once you have determined where to place the cam, make sure you test the location prior to running cable and mounting the cams.

 

[wittaj]

The Z12 does not auto read the plates, and the Z12 came right into my neighbors Lorex NVR just fine. Since they are built by Dahua it should not be an issue.

And while many of the cameras can work with Edge or other browsers, some cannot like the PTZ for some reason.

 

[samplenhold]

What I do not understand on the robbery is the timing.

The perp runs up to the driveway at 1:04 and goes back to the truck empty handed by 1:13. So he was there for about 10 seconds. He moves the truck a few feet and at 1:50 he comes back, presumably with a gun? That was 37 seconds, more than half a minute, for the victims to get inside before he returned. He then flees back to the truck with a bag at 2:10.

Why did they stay outside?

 

[ArmoredDragon]

But try Pale Moon - many with an NVR have been able to use that to get into the NVR interface and then use Explorer baked into the NVR to access the rest - what is wrong with that? That isn't using Explorer on your computer then.

Doesn't seem to work for me. Also I don't understand what you mean by 'explorer baked into the nvr', how would that even happen?

 

[ArmoredDragon]

What I do not understand on the robbery is the timing.

The perp runs up to the driveway at 1:04 and goes back to the truck empty handed by 1:13. So he was there for about 10 seconds. He moves the truck a few feet and at 1:50 he comes back, presumably with a gun? That was 37 seconds, more than half a minute, for the victims to get inside before he returned. He then flees back to the truck with a bag at 2:10.

Why did they stay outside?

I think she was in her garage, my guess is she didn't see him walking up the first time.

 

[ArmoredDragon]

The newer Dahua firmware, the one that would come with the 5241 Z12 that @wittaj recommended, will use Edge just fine. I use Edge for the settings in the cam without any problems. I have also tried it with PaleMoon, Chrome, and Firefox, which all acted the same as Edge.

Wittaj linked a couple of my threads that might help you with your install and planning. Your distances are a little further out than mine, but you have a better angle. The Z12 on that cam will do 110' just fine.

View attachment 129814

Realize that it would be important to plan and take some shots with a camera or cell phone as cars come by to see if you could get a good shot. Once you have determined where to place the cam, make sure you test the location prior to running cable and mounting the cams.

Is it viable to use this camera to try to see faces during the day and night as well? Say people walking on the adjacent sidewalks? Or is it only really practical to tune them to being able to get maximum contrast for license plates? Sadly there's pretty much only one place I can viably install each of them. They'll have to sit at basically the same height as the cameras that you see in the youtube videos (about 9' high) and there are trees and other obstructions that would prevent them from being placed close to the road. Actually one of them has to sit in under the archway that you can see in front of the camera in the second video. I doubt I can realistically put it anywhere else.

 

[wittaj]

As I showed in the above post.

Log into the NVR GUI via Pale Moon by typing in the IP address of the NVR in the Pale Moon browser.

Next go into the camera settings page on the NVR and look for the Microsoft e Web Browser icon (blue e below) and select it and it will go to the camera GUI (photo credit bigredfish from his PSA thread). This is how you can still use Explorer that is baked into the NVR. Your screen may look a little different to get into the camera gui and see if doing it this way gets you access to some other features the NVR is blocking - do not worry about the Port number and circle as that was from another issue someone posted. This works fine on my neighbors Win 11 laptop that does not have Explorer on it.

Simply select the blue IE icon and it will go to the camera GUI and from there you can set the camera parameters. This is for a Dahua NVR, but Lorex is Dahua OEM and my neighbors looks very similar and this is how we get into his.

 

[wittaj]

Is it viable to use this camera to try to see faces during the day and night as well? Say people walking on the adjacent sidewalks? Or is it only really practical to tune them to being able to get maximum contrast for license plates? Sadly there's pretty much only one place I can viably install each of them. They'll have to sit at basically the same height as the cameras that you see in the youtube videos (about 9' high) and there are trees and other obstructions that would prevent them from being placed close to the road. Actually one of them has to sit in under the archway that you can see in front of the camera in the second video. I doubt I can realistically put it anywhere else.

No, unless you have a ton of light, at night, your image will look like this at night. The only way to get plates is a fast shutter and we are using the reflectivity of plates for the infrared bounce. Someone can walk right thru this field of view and will not be seen due to the fast shutter. Unless they are wearing a reflective vest. @samplenhold is one of the few hear that can run color, but look at the LPR subforum and you will find most look like this:



You simply keep your existing cameras as overviews and add these as LPR cams right next to it.

 

[samplenhold]

. @samplenhold is one of the few hear that can run color,

Just to clarify, I do NOT run in color at night on my two LPR cams. They are in B&W with full IR.

I have some overview cams that cover parts of the road that run in color 24/7.

Is it viable to use this camera to try to see faces during the day and night as well? Say people walking on the adjacent sidewalks? Or is it only really practical to tune them to being able to get maximum contrast for license plates?

As Wittaj stated, the LPR cams really should be dedicated for LPR only. I do get good shots of people, dogs, squirrels and other things during the day, But at night, they are really dedicated to LPR only. As far as faces on my LPR cams, they are focused on the road at plate level, so most folks walking through the FOV do not have their head in view.

 

[Timokreon]

Just another example of the evil we have today due to VERY lax policies set forth by a certain political party.
One hates to live in fear all the time, but people really need to learn somebody is going to take advantage of them if they aren't protecting themselves. Really needs to shut the garage door as soon as one drives in. Shut car off keeping door locked, shut garage door, THEN get out of car.

Sadly they'll feel violated and never feel safe again. An absolute shame, but things are only going to get worse unfortunately.

I hope the police are looking into rental records of U-Haul in the surrounding area. Though if like many cities and states, even if the thug is caught, he'll be let go with a slap on the wrist.

I'm actually thinking of grabbing another LPR and a PTR just because of all the evil in the world.

 

[ArmoredDragon]

As I showed in the above post.

Log into the NVR GUI via Pale Moon by typing in the IP address of the NVR in the Pale Moon browser.

Next go into the camera settings page on the NVR and look for the Microsoft e Web Browser icon (blue e below) and select it and it will go to the camera GUI (photo credit bigredfish from his PSA thread). This is how you can still use Explorer that is baked into the NVR. Your screen may look a little different to get into the camera gui and see if doing it this way gets you access to some other features the NVR is blocking - do not worry about the Port number and circle as that was from another issue someone posted. This works fine on my neighbors Win 11 laptop that does not have Explorer on it.

The problem is it doesn't show video when I do that, it just shows a blank feed with text saying to install the plugin. Installing the plugin doesn't help.

 

[ArmoredDragon]

Just another example of the evil we have today due to VERY lax policies set forth by a certain political party.
One hates to live in fear all the time, but people really need to learn somebody is going to take advantage of them if they aren't protecting themselves. Really needs to shut the garage door as soon as one drives in. Shut car off keeping door locked, shut garage door, THEN get out of car.

Sadly they'll feel violated and never feel safe again. An absolute shame, but things are only going to get worse unfortunately.

I hope the police are looking into rental records of U-Haul in the surrounding area. Though if like many cities and states, even if the thug is caught, he'll be let go with a slap on the wrist.

I'm actually thinking of grabbing another LPR and a PTR just because of all the evil in the world.

Likely California, but not here as we haven't loosened any criminal penalties in recent memory. I think in this case there may be an organized crime element. These neighbors own a local restaurant, and I think they may have been getting cash for something related to the business, and it may be something they do routinely. Either they were targeted specifically, or somebody was just having one person wait inside of the bank until some random person withdrew a lot of cash, then had somebody outside follow them home.

From that second video link I posted I was barely able to make out the last two letters of the plate, which I'm about 80% certain are ZH, and I think that would make it pretty easy for u-haul to figure out exactly which vehicle it was, which may be enough of a lead to identify the perp.

 

[ArmoredDragon]

Kind of wonder if I should position an LPR camera in a similar position to the one in my second youtube link. I think that distance is only about 50ft, possibly less. Is there a practical possibility of being able to spot both people and plates at that shorter distance? And if so, is there an ideal camera for that?

Basically what I'm thinking is if I had say a quarter of the FOV of that E891AB, only the same resolution, same sensor, same features, etc, and basically positioned just a few feet in front of that camera. Any camera like that around? And if so, how likely is it to spot plates at night at that distance?

 

[wittaj]

Kind of wonder if I should position an LPR camera in a similar position to the one in my second youtube link. I think that distance is only about 50ft, possibly less. Is there a practical possibility of being able to spot both people and plates at that shorter distance? And if so, is there an ideal camera for that?

Basically what I'm thinking is if I had say a quarter of the FOV of that E891AB, only the same resolution, same sensor, same features, etc, and basically positioned just a few feet in front of that camera. Any camera like that around? And if so, how likely is it to spot plates at night at that distance?

No a shorter distance does not get you the ability to see faces at night. And at 50 feet, the option would be the 5442-Z4E which is the same price as the Z12E but the Z4E has half the optical zoom as the Z12E, so most will opt for the one with bigger zoom.

As we have said, it is all about shutter speed to get plates at night. Look at the LPR subforum and almost every capture is like what i have showed you . All you get is a black image and head/tail lights and the plate. Whether it is 10 feet or 200 feet, that is the image you get. People here have cams on the mailbox at the street for LPR and someone walking 10 feet in front of it is missed at night.

Take one of your cameras and change the shutter to 1/2,000 and see what the image looks like. Heck even at 1/250 it will probably be all black.

One camera cannot be the do all, see all. You have to decide do you want plates or faces. At night you are either getting plates or people, not both. We run an overview camera to get people and car color and then a camera for LPR.

 

[ArmoredDragon]

Understood. Is there any advantage of the Z4E over the Z12 at all in real world usage?

 

[wittaj]

Nope, in fact we have had many members that switched out the Z4E for the Z12 for plate reading. You want the plate as large as possible in the field of view.

2MP is more than adequate for LPR. Many businesses still use 720 analog.

OpenALPR recommends 720P in many instances to read plates.

I even did a test on different quality samples:

How much resolution is really needed for LPR

We have folks come here all the time thinking that more MP is better, whether it be for general purposes or for LPR. Those of us that have been around long enough know that sensor size is more important than MP. Those that have been here awhile know that I share a representative sample of...

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