Who sells an outdoor PTZ dome with external audio in and out connections for 2 way audio ? 8MP preferred and 15+ optical zoom
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looney2ns
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Domes are not recommended outside unless it is well protected from the elements. The big issue is that the domes will hold onto water droplets much longer than a turret or bullet and thus any dirt on it can then become problematic. And during a rain event, the camera is basically blind...
The domes attract lots of dust. Then rain. Then dirty rain spots. Glare from all angles of the sun. Then over time the sun will "fog" the dome like a car headlight.
Then domes with PTZs can be problematic if they have infrared capabilities - the seal will wear down from extended use and then infrared bleed will start blinding the camera.
We talk a lot here about the proper MP/sensor ratio for cameras and I am not aware of an 8MP PTZ on the 1/1.2" sensor and if there is one, open up your checkbook! The proper MP/sensor ratio is even more critical for a PTZ where at night it will be subject to a wide array of different light conditions as it pans, tilts and zooms. Plus the further away you look, the larger the Fstop gets, which then needs even more light. An 8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor will render a 15+ zoom useless at night...
The domes attract lots of dust. Then rain. Then dirty rain spots. Glare from all angles of the sun. Then over time the sun will "fog" the dome like a car headlight.
Then domes with PTZs can be problematic if they have infrared capabilities - the seal will wear down from extended use and then infrared bleed will start blinding the camera.
We talk a lot here about the proper MP/sensor ratio for cameras and I am not aware of an 8MP PTZ on the 1/1.2" sensor and if there is one, open up your checkbook! The proper MP/sensor ratio is even more critical for a PTZ where at night it will be subject to a wide array of different light conditions as it pans, tilts and zooms. Plus the further away you look, the larger the Fstop gets, which then needs even more light. An 8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor will render a 15+ zoom useless at night...
Phrede
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Thanks, this may be the one.
If nighttime performance is a concern for you, the 2MP or 4MP version of that camera (49225 or 49425) will be a better option. The 2MP, 4MP, and 8MP are all on the same size sensor (1/2.8"), so the lower MP will perform better at night. I have the 2MP and 4MP and the 2MP blows away the 4MP at night.
Phrede
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Thanks for the reply.
About the application....
My main focus is daylight that is sometimes at a distance. Imagine looking down a straight private road at a max of around 700ft. I would like to be able to read a license plate as far out as possible. IR range on this camera is advertised at 100M. That is the reason for the higher resolution. Of course night time does happen so I can't say it doesn't matter. Highest priority is within 100 ft.
Maybe a lower MP would be better IDK. There are no other light sources in the area. Any links or direction on topic would be appreciated. I'm assuming a lower pixel density gives more light gathering per pixel??
Part of the reason for the upgrade is to be able to have 2 way audio with visitors at a gate located about 20' away from the camera. The normal stopping point is a bit further out. PTZ is needed for other concerns.
I'm using Blue Iris for all cameras. Any camera internal motion sensing goes unused. I have found auto motion tracking intriguing but haven't researched it much to know if there is any real value.
I've looked into other methods like video doorbells but haven't found one that is WiFi. Camera 2 Way audio has other advantages like remote monitoring via Blue Iris. The camera is located about 125 yards from the house but is POE with an injector about 40' away. There is also a Wifi AP at that same point. Existing camera is a Reolink RLC-511 and is lacking clarity at 75ft.
Internal speakers are horrible and unusable that far away. I'm also searching for an amplified outdoor speaker to use.
Thanks for any insight / suggestions.
From experience, no way are the DORI numbers accurate, especially for night. Those numbers are based on a static image. As I mentioned, the more zoom, the more light is needed. You can cut that number by 75% or more unless all you are looking at is static images. Once you set the shutter such that you eliminate motion/blur and ghosting, the effective distance is cut a lot. And 8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor will be blind at distance.
At night, my 2MP version of the camera beats the 4MP version at distance. Not even close. And in the daytime, I can read plates from 900 feet away with my 2MP.
If I had it all over to do again, I wouldn't have bought the 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor. The 2MP on 1/2.8" sensor is the ideal MP/sensor ratio.
Are you trying to pickup plates (LPR) at night of a moving vehicle or parked?
You will find that one camera cannot be the do all/see all.
Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.
At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):
PTZs are problematic for LPR because you cannot force a focus like you can the fixed cams, meaning that at the shutter speeds needed to read plates, because the image is dark, the PTZ is always hunting for something to focus on, and then the car comes by and it is in the middle of focusing. You can do tricks like putting reflective tape out there, but then at night that PTZ is essentially a fixed cam.
Most PTZs are more difficult to set a manual focus that sticks. So you end up having to force it to a field of view while enough light out to get the focus, but if you move the PTZ at night and then back, it will be blurry for plates the rest of the night. Most that have tried to use PTZ here have gone to a dedicated cam for LPR purposes. The camera will only be seeing about the size of the car and not much else.
It is almost a waste of a PTZ to use it for plates. The 5241-Z12E at half the price or more would be a better option and can get plates at 200 feet or so.
At night, my 2MP version of the camera beats the 4MP version at distance. Not even close. And in the daytime, I can read plates from 900 feet away with my 2MP.
If I had it all over to do again, I wouldn't have bought the 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor. The 2MP on 1/2.8" sensor is the ideal MP/sensor ratio.
Are you trying to pickup plates (LPR) at night of a moving vehicle or parked?
You will find that one camera cannot be the do all/see all.
Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.
At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):
PTZs are problematic for LPR because you cannot force a focus like you can the fixed cams, meaning that at the shutter speeds needed to read plates, because the image is dark, the PTZ is always hunting for something to focus on, and then the car comes by and it is in the middle of focusing. You can do tricks like putting reflective tape out there, but then at night that PTZ is essentially a fixed cam.
Most PTZs are more difficult to set a manual focus that sticks. So you end up having to force it to a field of view while enough light out to get the focus, but if you move the PTZ at night and then back, it will be blurry for plates the rest of the night. Most that have tried to use PTZ here have gone to a dedicated cam for LPR purposes. The camera will only be seeing about the size of the car and not much else.
It is almost a waste of a PTZ to use it for plates. The 5241-Z12E at half the price or more would be a better option and can get plates at 200 feet or so.
By itself, a PTZ can be problematic because it is always looking the wrong way. Ideal case scenario for a PTZ is you have enough fixed cameras installed to capture all of your areas, and then the PTZ supplements it. It becomes another tool in the toolbox.
So the fixed cameras then become spotter cameras for the PTZ and when the fixed cam is triggered, it sends the PTZ to a preset to the area of motion and then an autotracking PTZ takes over and follows the person around automatically - you do not need to be sitting at the controls. It adds a lot more capability and opportunity get great captures.
Since you use BI, here is a thread I made on how to set it up:
ipcamtalk.com
So the fixed cameras then become spotter cameras for the PTZ and when the fixed cam is triggered, it sends the PTZ to a preset to the area of motion and then an autotracking PTZ takes over and follows the person around automatically - you do not need to be sitting at the controls. It adds a lot more capability and opportunity get great captures.
Since you use BI, here is a thread I made on how to set it up:
Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris
We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to. Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and...
You said you have looked at video doorbells but you haven't found one that is wifi? Almost all video doorbells are wifi...
Here is a decent one that is wifi and POE:
ipcamtalk.com
Here is a decent one that is wifi and POE:
Review- VTO2301R-P 2mp Door Station/Doorbell Dahua/Empiretech
Courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY we have another cam to checkout in return for a fair and honest review. Thanks again to Andy! He does such a great job of supporting everyone here. We have the: VTO2301R-P PC and ABS material make it ideal for indoor and outdoor use. 1/2.8" 2-MP HD CMOS camera...
sebastiantombs
Known around here
LPR
ipcamtalk.com
ipcamtalk.com
ipcamtalk.com
New to LPR? Considerations Before You Begin
Thought I would throw together a post on my experiences so far with LPR in an effort to help others that are considering running down that rabbit hole. There are some practical considerations you should know about LPR. I am approaching this from the position of using Blue Iris and Plate...
LPR Case Study: Scoping, Planning, Proof of Concept, Installation, & Results
Introduction This thread is about my journey into LPR (License Plate Recognition) after having about 18 months of experience with IP cams and having quite a bit of my system finished. I am not an expert on LPR, or IP cameras either. But I have spent a lot of time working with my system and...
Review-Dahua IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E AI Varifocal Bullet
Courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY at Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group And EmpireTech-Andy @ Amazon.com: Price Approximately $220US shipped via DHL...
Phrede
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Sorry, not WiFiYou said you have looked at video doorbells but you haven't found one that is wifi? Almost all video doorbells are wifi...
Here is a decent one that is wifi and POE:
Review- VTO2301R-P 2mp Door Station/Doorbell Dahua/Empiretech
Courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY we have another cam to checkout in return for a fair and honest review. Thanks again to Andy! He does such a great job of supporting everyone here. We have the: VTO2301R-P PC and ABS material make it ideal for indoor and outdoor use. 1/2.8" 2-MP HD CMOS camera...
Phrede
n3wb
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It looks like Dahua offers external audio pretty standard, that opens up a lot of options. Even some high end AI things.
The camera will be PTZ. I understand the concern. However there are ways to work around them here.
Are your night comparisons related to Starvis performance? I think my environment leans more toward IR.
What was the optical zoom in your 900 ft example of reading a license plate with 2MP?
The camera will be PTZ. I understand the concern. However there are ways to work around them here.
Are your night comparisons related to Starvis performance? I think my environment leans more toward IR.
What was the optical zoom in your 900 ft example of reading a license plate with 2MP?
sebastiantombs
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Phrede
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Not what I saw. was POE only. A DHI-DB11 is WiFi.
Phrede
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Negative. He is a Mastiff.
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sebastiantombs
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That's odd. I have that same model doorbell and it has both PoE and WiFi. I wouldn't use WiFi for any camera, but that is my choice based on crappy experiences with both WiFi cameras and WiFi doorbells.
Nice looking puppy. Guess he weighs around 160 or more. Love the wrinkled forehead, makes them look like they're always thinking, and actually they are.
Nice looking puppy. Guess he weighs around 160 or more. Love the wrinkled forehead, makes them look like they're always thinking, and actually they are.
As mentioned above, Starvus is a marketing term and really means nothing. Whether I force the two cameras in color or run them both in B/W with infrared, the 2MP blows away the 4MP because they are on the same sensor so the 4MP needs double the light to produce the same image as the 2MP.
I linked the VTO2301R-P which is indeed a POE and wifi doorbell camera. I have it and I know LOL.
I linked the VTO2301R-P which is indeed a POE and wifi doorbell camera. I have it and I know LOL.
As an Amazon Associate IPCamTalk earns from qualifying purchases.
An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at an 8MP camera and this 8MP needs at least four times the amount of light as a 2MP for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 8MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP.
Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker outside because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has four times the amount of holes (now it represents 8MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is a lot more screen material.
So if your house is like most where the top pane is glass with no screen and the bottom half is window with the screen and you see something outside during the daytime - do you sit down to look out through the screen or do you stand up to look a the object through the window with no screen?
And that is accentuated even more at night time. Look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material?
Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.
It is why many of us here say do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). At nighttime is when most of us want the camera to perform. Almost any camera can work with enough daylight.
2MP on 1/2.8" or bigger sensor
4MP on 1/1.8" or bigger sensor
8MP on 1/1.2" or bigger sensor
If it doesn't meet that, then don't buy.
Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker outside because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has four times the amount of holes (now it represents 8MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is a lot more screen material.
So if your house is like most where the top pane is glass with no screen and the bottom half is window with the screen and you see something outside during the daytime - do you sit down to look out through the screen or do you stand up to look a the object through the window with no screen?
And that is accentuated even more at night time. Look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material?
Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.
It is why many of us here say do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). At nighttime is when most of us want the camera to perform. Almost any camera can work with enough daylight.
2MP on 1/2.8" or bigger sensor
4MP on 1/1.8" or bigger sensor
8MP on 1/1.2" or bigger sensor
If it doesn't meet that, then don't buy.
@bigredfish tested two PTZs (I think they were PTZs, but even if they were fixed cams, the result is the same) - one was a 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor size similar to the camera Looney linked above, and the other was a 4MP on the ideal 1/1.8" sensor.
Here was the 1/2.8" sensor:
And the 1/1.8" sensor:
Now imagine how much darker an 8MP would be on the 1st image that would need double the light to produce the same image.
This is why you do not chase MP, but sensor size.
And we also have to remember that default/auto settings will produce an even brighter image than above, but then motion is a complete blur. That is when you really start to see the limitations of cameras with the wrong MP/sensor ratio.
Here was the 1/2.8" sensor:
And the 1/1.8" sensor:
Now imagine how much darker an 8MP would be on the 1st image that would need double the light to produce the same image.
This is why you do not chase MP, but sensor size.
And we also have to remember that default/auto settings will produce an even brighter image than above, but then motion is a complete blur. That is when you really start to see the limitations of cameras with the wrong MP/sensor ratio.
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