Who sells an outdoor PTZ dome with external audio in and out connections for 2 way audio ? 8MP preferred and 15+ optical zoom

[Phrede]

That's odd. I have that same model doorbell and it has both PoE and WiFi. I wouldn't use WiFi for any camera, but that is my choice based on crappy experiences with both WiFi cameras and WiFi doorbells.

Nice looking puppy. Guess he weighs around 160 or more. Love the wrinkled forehead, makes them look like they're always thinking, and actually they are.

Links were 2 different models. The Amazon link is WiFi. Does it work with BI or is it stand alone software? I would want to feed it with 12Vdc for power.

We weighs in just under 200. He was a mess when I got him but rehabbed well. I do giant breed rescue. Currently halve 5, all 150 and up.

I'm going cross eyed looking at all the specs. I do think I want to try for something with auto tracking.

 

[wittaj]

Use the link I provided. Yes it works in Blue Iris as shown in the review thread I posted in Post #9.

Why wouldn't you just power it with POE? You are running the cable anyway? You would only use 12Vdc if you wanted to run it wifi. Well you could run 12Vdc and just regular ethernet, but why run two cables?

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Two-Way-Station-Unlocking-VTO2311R-WP/dp/B09Z6FYZWD/ref=sr_1_51?imprToken=eNnu.Pmf5hsW5hcTVECAQg&linkCode=w61&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1660446068&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&slotNum=0&sr=1-51&tag=ipctk-20

 

[wittaj]

Keep in mind that if you do autotracking, then you won't be getting plates with the camera, especially in infrared as the reflective plates will wash out unless you run the fast shutter I mentioned in the previous post, but at that fast shutter, the camera will not autotrack as the image is too black for it to lock on to the object.

 

[Phrede]

I get the examples. FWIW I do a lot of photography so it's not entirely foreign.
I am questioning the value of the Starvis technology given there is so little ambient light. Unless there is a full moon.

 

[wittaj]

Again, Starvis is a marketing term by Sony and means nothing in real world applications as it relates to these cameras...

3 cameras that are 2MP, 4MP and 8MP on the same size 1/2.8" Starvus sensor means that the 2MP will perform the best at night as it doesn't need as much light as the 4MP and 8MP on the same size sensor...

The words Accusense, ColorVu, Dark Fighter, Starlight, Starvus, etc. are simply marketing hooks and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simple a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual capabilities of the camera is more important. I can make a crappy $40 camera look like noon at midnight with a wide open shutter, but the motion will be a blur...

This is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starvus as this camera is marketed as having a Starvus sensor.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two visible columns:





Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you




You might have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL as you play with these. Almost everyone that has come here with experience in DSLR cameras struggle with these cameras. Every one of these cameras have more processing of the images than a DSLR camera. Some are worse than others. Then there is the compression of the video, etc. Turn off NR on one of these cameras and you will see how much processing is used.

You will find a BIG difference between photography equipment and these cameras. Things like trying to match focal lengths are tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. Digital zoom works better on DSLR cameras than these. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level. These cameras are designed for 24/7 use with abuse from the elements. DSLR cameras are designed for a different working environment and purpose. Hang a DSLR camera outside and see how long it lasts LOL! But the quality would be better for the time it was working (but also a lot more storage needed too).

Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment and you won't with these kinds of cameras. These are for a different use and different expectations.

• Sensor Size - a full frame DSLR sensor size is 864mm^2; whereas a 1/2.8" sensor popular on many cameras would be 20mm^2, so the "real" camera can collect over 40 times more light than a surveillance camera. And this doesn't even account for less light available for an 8MP versus 2MP for the same size sensor.
• Shutter Speed (Exposure) - Taking a picture with a "real" camera, you can slow the shutter down to 1/2s or longer for a nice clean picture of a person not moving. Perps rarely stand still and we need a shutter of at least 1/60s to minimize the blur.
• Aperture - With a "real" camera you focus on a specific part of the field of view, while a surveillance needs to focus on things in the foreground and background, which means the aperture is smaller, further compounding the light issue.
• Compression - A single 8MP image from a "real" camera could be upwards of 5MB of storage. In surveillance cameras, if you record at 15FPS, every second of video could be 75MB or more, which could equate to 6.5TB per day per camera. Obviously most are not going to have that kind of storage, so lossy compression algorithms are used to reduce storage and network bandwidth requirement, and that can add noise.
• Environment - a "real" camera is used mainly under ideal conditions, whereas a surveillance camera is going 24/7 in every type of element, so the design and size impacts its capabilities.

 

[wittaj]

The 4K/X camera on the larger 1/1.2" sensor will blow the socks off any 4K camera on the smaller 1/2.8" sensor at night because more light hits the sensor.

No surveillance camera on the market will do well at night without light. It needs white light or infrared light.

No Starvus 1/2.8" sensor is on the market that will do well with no light. You need to jump to the 1/1.2" sensor to start to see benefits of having little light, but light is still needed. But the 1/1.2" sensor is the first one that can actually somewhat function with just a full moon.

Remember, all the claims the manufactures make for the capabilities of their cameras/sensors are based on really slow shutters. Of course less LUX is needed if I am running a 1/3s shutter. But we want to not have motion blur, so that means at least a 1/60s shutter and more LUX is needed for that because the faster the shutter, the more light is needed. Their marketing specs don't account for that, only static images.

The MP/sensor ratio cannot be dismissed.

 

[Phrede]

Again, Starvis is a marketing term by Sony and means nothing in real world applications...

3 cameras that are 2MP, 4MP and 8MP on the same size 1/2.8" Starvus sensor means that the 2MP will perform the best at night as it doesn't need as much light as the 4MP and 8MP on the same size sensor...

The words Accusense, ColorVu, Dark Fighter, Starlight, Starvus, etc. are simply marketing hooks and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simple a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual capabilities of the camera is more important. I can make a crappy $40 camera look like noon at midnight with a wide open shutter, but the motion will be a blur...

This is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starvus as this camera is marketed as having a Starvus sensor.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two visible columns:

View attachment 136574



Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you




You might have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL as you play with these. Almost everyone that has come here with experience in DSLR cameras struggle with these cameras. Every one of these cameras have more processing of the images than a DSLR camera. Some are worse than others. Then there is the compression of the video, etc. Turn off NR on one of these cameras and you will see how much processing is used.

You will find a BIG difference between photography equipment and these cameras. Things like trying to match focal lengths are tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. Digital zoom works better on DSLR cameras than these. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level. These cameras are designed for 24/7 use with abuse from the elements. DSLR cameras are designed for a different working environment and purpose. Hang a DSLR camera outside and see how long it lasts LOL! But the quality would be better for the time it was working (but also a lot more storage needed too).

Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment and you won't with these kinds of cameras. These are for a different use and different expectations.

• Sensor Size - a full frame DSLR sensor size is 864mm^2; whereas a 1/2.8" sensor popular on many cameras would be 20mm^2, so the "real" camera can collect over 40 times more light than a surveillance camera. And this doesn't even account for less light available for an 8MP versus 2MP for the same size sensor.
• Shutter Speed (Exposure) - Taking a picture with a "real" camera, you can slow the shutter down to 1/2s or longer for a nice clean picture of a person not moving. Perps rarely stand still and we need a shutter of at least 1/60s to minimize the blur.
• Aperture - With a "real" camera you focus on a specific part of the field of view, while a surveillance needs to focus on things in the foreground and background, which means the aperture is smaller, further compounding the light issue.
• Compression - A single 8MP image from a "real" camera could be upwards of 5MB of storage. In surveillance cameras, if you record at 15FPS, every second of video could be 75MB or more, which could equate to 6.5TB per day per camera. Obviously most are not going to have that kind of storage, so lossy compression algorithms are used to reduce storage and network bandwidth requirement, and that can add noise.
• Environment - a "real" camera is used mainly under ideal conditions, whereas a surveillance camera is going 24/7 in every type of element, so the design and size impacts its capabilities.

Sony makes the sensor, therefore they get to name it. It's all about color capabilities (non-IR) in lower light. There is a minimum amount of light required still. I believe I'm below that threshold most of the time so the "whatever name you want to put on it" has little to no value in my application. Thankfully IR still exists. FWIW, I don't run DSLR.

Use the link I provided. Yes it works in Blue Iris as shown in the review thread I posted in Post #9.

Why wouldn't you just power it with POE? You are running the cable anyway? You would only use 12Vdc if you wanted to run it wifi. Well you could run 12Vdc and just regular ethernet, but why run two cables?

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Two-Way-Station-Unlocking-VTO2311R-WP/dp/B09Z6FYZWD/ref=sr_1_51?imprToken=eNnu.Pmf5hsW5hcTVECAQg&linkCode=w61&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1660446068&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&slotNum=0&sr=1-51&tag=ipctk-20

Solar powered by local means.

 

[Mike A.]

Sony makes the sensor, therefore they get to name it. It's all about color capabilities (non-IR) in lower light. There is a minimum amount of light required still. I believe I'm below that threshold most of the time so the "whatever name you want to put on it" has little to no value in my application. Thankfully IR still exists.

"Starviz" as Sony names that generation of its back-illuminated/higher sensitivity sensors isn't restricted to color. It also applies to better near-infrared performance as used in these cams. Seems that rather than "Starviz" you're referring to color at night however that may be named and employing whatever specific sensors. That is a concern if you don't have/want a good amount of white light and even within same product names/lines performance can vary a lot.

As noted, there are a variety of different marketing labels used by camera makers for their different lines employing different or the same sensors and even within product lines/generations/variations. There are "Starview" and "Darkfighter," etc., cams that are great and others that kind of suck in various ways. Cams using the same sensor called by different product line names given other features/capabilities (e.g., IR or none, AI, etc.). There is good color at night and kind of lousy color at night both within the same named lines. That's why people are trying to push you away from those labels to look more to specific capabilities of given cams.

 

[Phrede]

I get it. What seems to be getting lost here is that there is more to a successful application fit than very low light capabilities. Many things factor in and life is a compromise, always. The weighting of the capabilities and strengths and weaknesses is what a good integrator does. Things like auxiliary lighting to augment IR capabilities may be necessary. Perhaps long range daylight performance is a higher priority. Maybe Auto Tracking is something only needed during the day time. I'm not trying to put a square peg in a round hole. PTZ cameras are not evil and sometime fit the need (I have a 10 year old PTZ with high powered IRs that have no leaks).

I do appreciate the input, but not everything happens in the suburbs after dark.

 

[wittaj]

Almost anything could look good at the daytime. I would still favor one of the cameras I mentioned over this. That is simply not an ideal MP/sensor ratio. 8MP should be on 1/1.2" sensor not 1/2.8" regardless of what the sensor is callled.

This camera would need over 4 times the light of the 2MP on the same size sensor.

I have a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor and a 4MP PTZ on the same 1/2.8" sensor and I will take the 2MP day or night over the 4MP on the same sensor. I could just imagine how much harder it would have to work for 8MP.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light.

If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

If you don't care about night performance, then go for the 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor.

We are simply sharing our experiences with these cameras, but if you are set on MP over performance then go for it.

 

[sebastiantombs]

I think the shortest answer is that a camera that can perform well at night, capture blur free images good enough for identity purposes, will perform quite well during the day. LPR is a whole other thing and requires a dedicated camera.