Question about using IPC-Color4K-T for covert face detection

[f13dfx]

This idea might sound a bit far fetched, but I wanted to know which part of the lens has to be exposed if I were to cut a hole to conceal the entire camera. Was planning to put it inside a fake rock. I’ve enclosed a photo of the turret cam with a red circle around what I think the hole should be big enough for. BTW, I don’t need the illuminators as there is enough light at the planned location at night.

 

[TonyR]

That's about right but what about the hole for the built-in mic on the right side (camera's left) ?
It'll likely work but will be somewhat muffled.

Any plan to pull the cam out of it mount to make it smaller/easier to hide?

 

[f13dfx]

That's about right but what about the hole for the built-in mic on the right side (camera's left) ?
It'll likely work but will be somewhat muffled.

Any plan to pull the cam out of it mount to make it smaller/easier to hide?

That’s a great suggestion to pull the camera out of the mount OR I could create a fake rock over the entire camera+mount and use it as the upper portion of the rock! Here’s where the rock would be located.

 

[Mike A.]

Likely needs to be bigger with a wider angle lens. I know from when trying to do something similar with a variable length T5842 cam at a pond that I have that it was tunnel vision at wider angles until I made things larger. I scrapped that idea for other reasons and don't recall exactly what the limits were at various lengths. Test it with a piece of cardboard or masking tape or similar.

 

[f13dfx]

Likely needs to be bigger with a wider angle lens. I know from when trying to do something similar with a variable length T5842 cam at a pond that I have that it was tunnel vision at wider angles until I made things larger. I scrapped that idea for other reasons and don't recall exactly what the limits were at various lengths. Test it with a piece of cardboard or masking tape or similar.

So would the 3.6mm lens option be better than 2.8mm in this case? Or maybe a Pinhole camera like this would be better.

 

[Mike A.]

As far as that goes, yes, but I'd buy the cam based on whatever length you need otherwise and adapt the hole as needed vs the other way.

Can't view your link but generally pinhole cams aren't going to work as well for something like that.

 

[f13dfx]

Can't view your link but generally pinhole cams aren't going to work as well for something like that.

Sorry, link fixed!

 

[Mike A.]

Sorry, link fixed!

Naaa... don't do that. It will suck outside with low light and generally won't be as good all-around.

If you hide the cam even minimally, you'll be surprised how few ever notice it. None of mine are very well hidden, some very much in your face, and even in the case of the latter the large majority of people are completely unaware.

 

[Alaska Country]

Also consider your depth of field for the selected camera model. The object may not be in focus if too close or too far. The farther away with a wide lens the smaller the face, thus negating good ID.

For the 5849 the close focus distances are:
2.8 mm: 5 m (16.4 ft)
3.6 mm: 6 m (19.7 ft)

If a closer in focus view is necessary then one could take the camera apart and adjust the lens.

The other item of interest is that two camera may be needed, if viewing sidewalk traffic, so that faces can be recorded from both directions.

The example below is using a Dahua HFW5442E-Z4E (8-32mm) set at about 18 mm. Have the same issue here, is that another camera is needed for the other direction. But in my case there is not an appropriate camera placement location.

 

[CanCuba]

Also consider your depth of field for the selected camera model. The object may not be in focus if too close or too far. The farther away with a wide lens the smaller the face, thus negating good ID.

For the 5849 the close focus distances are:
2.8 mm: 5 m (16.4 ft)
3.6 mm: 6 m (19.7 ft)

If a closer in focus view is necessary then one could take the camera apart and adjust the lens.

The other item of interest is that two camera may be needed, if viewing sidewalk traffic, so that faces can be recorded from both directions.

The example below is using a Dahua HFW5442E-Z4E (8-32mm) set at about 18 mm. Have the same issue here, is that another camera is needed for the other direction. But in my case there is not an appropriate camera placement location.

View attachment 173399

I have a 4K-X 2.8mm. It's mounted 7m off the ground and about 7m back from the street. Initially, I didn't even place with face detection.

But when I did, wow! I don't get everyone walking by but I can get folks 20m away. I'm sure if it was lower, I could increase my capture rate significantly.

 

[biggen]

Also consider your depth of field for the selected camera model. The object may not be in focus if too close or too far. The farther away with a wide lens the smaller the face, thus negating good ID.

For the 5849 the close focus distances are:
2.8 mm: 5 m (16.4 ft)
3.6 mm: 6 m (19.7 ft)

If a closer in focus view is necessary then one could take the camera apart and adjust the lens.

The other item of interest is that two camera may be needed, if viewing sidewalk traffic, so that faces can be recorded from both directions.

The example below is using a Dahua HFW5442E-Z4E (8-32mm) set at about 18 mm. Have the same issue here, is that another camera is needed for the other direction. But in my case there is not an appropriate camera placement location.

View attachment 173399

I was going to say this. The 4KT has horrible depth of field. The close focus distance is so far away I don't know how one could use it for facial I.D. The 2.8mm has a close focus distance of 16.4' while the 3.6mm is 19.7'. Here is a link to Andy's store with it's data sheet showing its close focus distance:

EmpireTech IPC-Color4K-T 8MP 1/1.2" CMOS Full-color Fixed-focal Warm L

8-MP 1/1.2" CMOS image sensor, low illuminance, high image definition. Outputs max. 8 MP (3840 × 2160) @30 fps. Built-in warm light and the max. illumination distance is 50 m. ROI, SVC, SMART H.264 +/H.265+, AI H.264/H.265, flexible coding, applicable to various bandwidth and storage...

empiretech01.com

I have the 3.6mm version of the 4KT. I can tell you that images are very soft if under 10'. To me, the 4KT isn't a usable camera for any ID'ing because of its close focus distance issue. It may detect faces under 10' but they aren't going to be crystal clear. It is better served as an overview or spotter. My opinion anyway.

 

[f13dfx]

I was going to say this. The 4KT has horrible depth of field. The close focus distance is so far away I don't know how one could use it for facial I.D. The 2.8mm has a close focus distance of 16.4' while the 3.6mm is 19.7'. Here is a link to Andy's store with it's data sheet showing its close focus distance:

EmpireTech IPC-Color4K-T 8MP 1/1.2" CMOS Full-color Fixed-focal Warm L

8-MP 1/1.2" CMOS image sensor, low illuminance, high image definition. Outputs max. 8 MP (3840 × 2160) @30 fps. Built-in warm light and the max. illumination distance is 50 m. ROI, SVC, SMART H.264 +/H.265+, AI H.264/H.265, flexible coding, applicable to various bandwidth and storage...

empiretech01.com

I have the 3.6mm version of the 4KT. I can tell you that images are very soft if under 10'. To me, the 4KT isn't a usable camera for any ID'ing because of its close focus distance issue. It may detect faces under 10' but they aren't going to be crystal clear. It is better served as an overview or spotter. My opinion anyway.

Which camera would you recommend please?

 

[f13dfx]

And what about this Solar Trail Camera? It’s got excellent reviews on Amazon & YouTube. It would also solve having to run ethernet cable underground! BTW it’s called the Campark TC22.

 

[bigredfish]

I have a 4K-X 2.8mm. It's mounted 7m off the ground and about 7m back from the street. Initially, I didn't even place with face detection.

But when I did, wow! I don't get everyone walking by but I can get folks 20m away. I'm sure if it was lower, I could increase my capture rate significantly.

I have both and while not ideal locations for comparison, I still beleive the X (bullet) has better depth of field

 

[biggen]

Which camera would you recommend please?

5442 is never the wrong choice.

 

[biggen]

And what about this Solar Trail Camera? It’s got excellent reviews on Amazon & YouTube. It would also solve having to run ethernet cable underground! BTW it’s called the Campark TC22.

Wired cam vs a wireless cam (trail cam at that) is like going from a Porsche to a VW Beetle. The sensor on that trail cam is 3x smaller too. You won’t get any useable night footage that isn’t BW.

 

[CCTVCam]

I was going to say this. The 4KT has horrible depth of field. The close focus distance is so far away I don't know how one could use it for facial I.D. The 2.8mm has a close focus distance of 16.4' while the 3.6mm is 19.7'. Here is a link to Andy's store with it's data sheet showing its close focus distance:

I would agree. As much as I like my 4kt's, I think they need a mk2 with a better lens & firmware or sensor (they probably need more sensitivity to allow a slightly smaller aperture to give better dof) and in my opinion they benefit from more resources ie processor and memory as they seem to slow with several simoultaneously enabled features and occassionally reboot. Mine are 99% stable but I've offloaded everything onto BI instead of in camera. to make aure.

 

[f13dfx]

5442 is never the wrong choice.

Do these ip cameras work with Powerline Adapters. Location doesn’t allow me to run a CAT6 line directly to camera. I probably would have to use a PoE injector to make this work.

 

[wittaj]

Do these ip cameras work with Powerline Adapters. Location doesn’t allow me to run a CAT6 line directly to camera.

Yes they do. Many use Powerline Adapters for that hard to get to place.

Of course they don't work in every instance due to wiring and configuration of the breaker box, so always try it first before installing.

 

[f13dfx]

Yes they do. Many use Powerline Adapters for that hard to get to place.

Of course they don't work in every instance due to wiring and configuration of the breaker box, so always try it first before installing.

Sorry, one other question. Would a wifi booster/extender with an RJ45 Socket work as well?