Beginner Question: AI or dump camera for Frigate

[TobiasF]

Hello,

I am new to the IP camera topics and I am new to Frigate. In installed Frigate successfully on my Proxmox VE and started playing. An integration in Home Asistant is planned as well.

To Frigate I came mainly because of the recording function and the integration to Home Assistant. As the detection in Frigate works so good I am asking myself if there is any need or advantage to to an AI powered camera over a "dump camera" without any AI function.

 

[TonyR]

if there is any need or advantage to to an AI powered camera over a "dump camera" without any AI function.

Or "dumb" camera as opposed to "smart" ?

 

[TobiasF]

Or "dumb" camera as opposed to "smart" ?

Yes "dumb" in the meaning of not smart and without AI.
Sorry for spelling mistake.

 

[steve1225]

Hello,

I am new to the IP camera topics and I am new to Frigate. In installed Frigate successfully on my Proxmox VE and started playing. An integration in Home Asistant is planned as well.

To Frigate I came mainly because of the recording function and the integration to Home Assistant. As the detection in Frigate works so good I am asking myself if there is any need or advantage to to an AI powered camera over a "dump camera" without any AI function.

First there are no modern cams without any AI..
if you will find some cams without AI then those are old construction / model...

Second AI detection in Frigate is not best quality (especially on free model). It generates a lot of false positives.

If You use dumb non AI or cheap / consumer based / old AI cameras then Frigate can works better.
If You use profesional cameras like Dahua 5442 then Frigate AI detection looks like toy..

Also with AI in camera You don't have problems like Frigate Scalability when there will be more cameras (using one or other AI hardware acceleration)...

ps. you should more look at camera quality in video context. Most cams today have bad night performance.
Good cams which can generate color video with some street light requires big image sensor 1/1.8" (or bigger) plus good optics / processing...
Also cheap cameras are with fixed lenses which gives you wide coverage but everything at distance is small on those cams..
Good quality camera have optical zoom, which allows You to proper zoom-in to people / vehicles at distance..

In case of good cams you pay for good video quality / performance / big sensor / good optics / hardware not for AI...
AI is extra, it's today a software thing which is added gratis to any camera..

 

[steve1225]

ps. demonstration what modern AI on camera can do..
5442-Z4E (telephoto optics 3x-9x) with FULL Video Meta Data AI mode enabled..
Data received and displayed by Dahua 5232-EI NVR..
this is one of many AI modes on this camera model...

Each event have snapshots + video..
There is also full description (like man, middle age, white t-shirt and blue jeans or car: blue color, type suv, brand Nissan) done by AI on camera, which can be searched..

ps2. look at cars at night - this camera can do shots with very short shutter speed at night to capture moving cars sharp.. Plus it can do triple shots per each video frame at different speeds to capture dark / normal / very bright (lamps, reflected plate number) elements and combine all three shots into one high dynamic (HDR / WDR) frame.. So You see both car and very bright reflected car plate..

Searches for motor vehicles / non motor vehicles / humans / faces:

 

[TobiasF]

First there are no modern cams without any AI..
[...]
Second AI detection in Frigate is not best quality (especially on free model). It generates a lot of false positives.
[..]
If You use profesional cameras like Dahua 5442 then Frigate AI detection looks like toy..

Thank you.
This helps a lot to get the right impression.
The pictures of your second post are impressive.

Using AI detection of the camera, would I still be able to use frigate for the event triggered storage?
Or is this possible only by using an NVR out of the ecosystem of the camera's maker?

 

[steve1225]

one of the main rules in cctv: only NVR/VMS from the same manufacturer is able to support all camera features (especially AI)..
there is no one standard for unified AI events between companies..

there is module for frigate which allows to receive dahua events...
but I don't know how they work for video meta data and does it receive attributes..

people who use here Blue Iris (different VMS for Windows) can receive simple IVS events, but Video Meta Data is too much complicated for external software.

If you want to search using attributes - this can be tricky without Dahua NVR..

 

[TobiasF]

one of the main rules in cctv: only NVR/VMS from the same manufacturer is able to support all camera features (especially AI)..

Thank you.
This I will take in consideration when selecting the cameras. But I might start with two cameras and something free like Frigate.
What I have read and tested with a web cam in combination with Frigate so far, let me believe that it will satisfy my needs.

• scare possible intruders (a blinking and beeping dummy cam would do this job)
• see whose dog shat in my backyard
• proof to the neighbour that it were his kid who took away the garden furniture and not any random theft
• detect people entering a zone to trigger events
• collect evidence of potential or successful burglars

I need zones and I need to detect people and animals in the size of a dog inside these zones.
If it does not satisfy my needs I can upgrade the NVR from the same vendor later.

 

[TobiasF]

I just checked out some NVR. I m not yet sure if for example a Dahua NVR4108HS-P-EI or NVR4104-P-EI would be the right choice for me. But they are not so expensive and do not draw so much power.
There might be no benefit to go with Frigate.

 

[qhash]

ps. demonstration what modern AI on camera can do..
5442-Z4E (telephoto optics 3x-9x) with FULL Video Meta Data AI mode enabled..
Data received and displayed by Dahua 5232-EI NVR..
this is one of many AI modes on this camera model...

Each event have snapshots + video..
There is also full description (like man, middle age, white t-shirt and blue jeans or car: blue color, type suv, brand Nissan) done by AI on camera, which can be searched..

ps2. look at cars at night - this camera can do shots with very short shutter speed at night to capture moving cars sharp.. Plus it can do triple shots per each video frame at different speeds to capture dark / normal / very bright (lamps, reflected plate number) elements and combine all three shots into one high dynamic (HDR / WDR) frame.. So You see both car and very bright reflected car plate..

Searches for motor vehicles / non motor vehicles / humans / faces:

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do you know by any chance how your screenshots compare to Dahua series 2 cameras e.g. DH-IPC-HFW2849T-ZAS-IL ?

From the datasheet:
Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, tripwire (the two functions
support the classification and accurate detection of vehicle and
human).

what series 2 (I assume LPR is not an option) cant do when compared to series 5?

those -EI NVRs can do 4 and 8 channels AI functions ( 16 and 32 channel versions, the latter you have). Do you know if that limits features FROM the cameras on the other channels or general incoming bandwith capacity?

 

[looney2ns]

Find the specs for the various NVRs HERE

 

[steve1225]

do you know by any chance how your screenshots compare to Dahua series 2 cameras e.g. DH-IPC-HFW2849T-ZAS-IL ?

From the datasheet:
Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, tripwire (the two functions
support the classification and accurate detection of vehicle and
human).

what series 2 (I assume LPR is not an option) cant do when compared to series 5?

those -EI NVRs can do 4 and 8 channels AI functions ( 16 and 32 channel versions, the latter you have). Do you know if that limits features FROM the cameras on the other channels or general incoming bandwith capacity?

on 2/3/4 series cams / NVRs You can't do Video Meta Data..

The only option is simple IVS with human/vehicle filtering. If You configure properly it will capture people/cars, but without any attributes like in my demonstration.

Also night performance of 2849 will be 10-20x worse that 5442...