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ProjectGuy111

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I've done some cursory research and seems I came to the right place (found several super useful posts from @wittaj )

I have an old Q-See system which I've run for almost 10 years and it recently died. Worked fine, though low resolution (and low end I know).

Since I'm upgrading, I figure I will go with IP (instead of BNC) and run new wires as a result (at least the holes are drilled!).

In doing reading here, it seems that an NVR isn't really the best option and I should go with a second hand PC and use Blue Iris. Can anyone confirm this would be worth the additional trouble for my use case? Also, any ballpark on what I can expect to spend? (camera options are also welcome :) )

Requirements:
  • 12 channels
  • 4K video
  • AI face recognition
  • Would be awesome to have notifications when my dog in the living room is on the move.
  • Good quality night vision (IR)
  • Ability to view from my Mac and iPhone (in house and remotely)
  • License Plate Reading (though this is more of a nice to have)

Current Setup I would like to duplicate with new setup:
Outdoor:
  • 3 cameras in the front of my house (front door and two sides) - front yard is only about 30' to the street
  • 3 cameras on the side yards covering the gates and side door
  • 2 cameras for the back yard (I've always struggled with ability to see at night with these) - back yard is about 100' deep

Indoor:
  • Living room (covers the front door as well)
  • Kitchen
  • Basement
  • Garage

With my current setup I'm basically able to see all parts of my yard and any entry point into the house so it has worked well.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Thanks!
 
wittaj

wittaj

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As you will see/have seen as go thru my threads, don't chase MP.

4K make great overview cameras or IDENTIFY if the subject is within 15ish feet of the camera (assuming camera no higher than 8 feet high).

Further, any 4K camera worth anything (except for the PTZs) do not see infrared. So any 4K camera under $150 will be on a less than ideal MP/sensor ratio but will see infrared.

A camera to IDENTIFY at 10 feet is different than a camera to IDENTIFY at the street 30 feet away or the end of your backyard 100 feet away. You will need more than one camera to cover those distances.

4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor are the current sweet spot that most find are more than adequate for surveillance cameras.

There is a big debate here on which is better. Personally I found the NVRs to be too clunky and not very user friendly and got to the point that I was reactive instead of proactive. I literally tested BI and knew within a few minutes it was better than any NVR I ever had.

But it comes down to your use case. For some people an NVR is the right choice, for others it is BI, while others it is the simple Ring or Arlo systems.

Here is the search tool of all the NVR versus BI comparisons:

blue iris vs nvr ip cam site:ipcamtalk.com - Google Search


You would have to set the camera up specifically to read plates. You need the proper camera with OPTICAL zoom for the distance you are covering and the angle to get plates.

Keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

1675078711764.png



See the LPR subforum for more details.
 
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It is OK to start small and build your system as you figure out what works best for your situation. I started with one Dahua/Andy 2MP Varifocal and BI, and now I am up to six mounted cameras and four still new in the box :rofl:

A wise man warned me, cameras multiply like rabbits.
 
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ProjectGuy111

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wittaj said:
As you will see/have seen as go thru my threads, don't chase MP.

4K make great overview cameras or IDENTIFY if the subject is within 15ish feet of the camera (assuming camera no higher than 8 feet high).

Further, any 4K camera worth anything (except for the PTZs) do not see infrared. So any 4K camera under $150 will be on a less than ideal MP/sensor ratio but will see infrared.

A camera to IDENTIFY at 10 feet is different than a camera to IDENTIFY at the street 30 feet away or the end of your backyard 100 feet away. You will need more than one camera to cover those distances.

4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor are the current sweet spot that most find are more than adequate for surveillance cameras.

There is a big debate here on which is better. Personally I found the NVRs to be too clunky and not very user friendly and got to the point that I was reactive instead of proactive. I literally tested BI and knew within a few minutes it was better than any NVR I ever had.

But it comes down to your use case. For some people an NVR is the right choice, for others it is BI, while others it is the simple Ring or Arlo systems.

Here is the search tool of all the NVR versus BI comparisons:

blue iris vs nvr ip cam site:ipcamtalk.com - Google Search


You would have to set the camera up specifically to read plates. You need the proper camera with OPTICAL zoom for the distance you are covering and the angle to get plates.

Keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

1675078711764.png



See the LPR subforum for more details.
Click to expand...
This is awesome info - thanks for responding!

I only really have time on the weekends to research so I’ll post a more detailed reply then (along with a diagram of the plan).

I have to think more about my use case as I’ve been pretty happy with my setup this far but you (and other threads make) valid points.

One of the things I learned here is about view angle. My cameras now give a good wide angle and makes me wonder how much that will narrow if I go to better cameras and if it will necessitate more cameras.

I actually figured out the issue with my Q-See system (bad power supply) so that is up and running which gives me more time. Though it is no longer supported and the iPhone app won’t go into landscape view anymore.

However, I really want to tackle the running of wires before it gets too hot in my attic as I’ll surely die up there lol.

Right now I’ve got the BNC +power and it’s a rats nest in the DVR closet.

My immediate goal is to order some Ethernet cables and get them run.

To that end, I keep reading about CAT5 or 6 but wonder:

  • Should I be running CAT8? Want to future proof as much as possible and don’t want to do this again…ever lol
  • Premade or get a spool and make the terminations myself?
  • In the Cliff Notes it says to run more than one to each camera location yet I also see posts about splitting 1 into 4. Are multiple cables to each camera still recommended / desired?
  • Are there posts about keeping cables tidy? The NVR/PC will live in a closet with a 12” deep shelf - my current DVR has to sit sideways to accommodate all the wires.

Just the fact that I’m limited to a NVR’s brand of cameras is a good reason to go with BI. But I also don’t know if I want another “labor of love” hobby as my free time is scarce.

Thank you again for all the help and please be patient with me as I navigate though the library of info here!
 
Ri22o

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ProjectGuy111 said:
One of the things I learned here is about view angle. My cameras now give a good wide angle and makes me wonder how much that will narrow if I go to better cameras and if it will necessitate more cameras.
Click to expand...
You will need more cameras.

One camera cannot do it all. You can not see everything and still see details. Getting good details does not allow you to see everything. This is why a good system will have cameras that compliment each other.

Focus on choke points and set up fields of view to capture details and give the ability to ID. This means all this camera will be able to do/see is the very narrow scope of its job. You can then deploy a more general overview cam to give context to the details.

For instance, I am working on deploying this camera. It's only job is to see people walking down the path behind my house. This is what I see 99% of the time when I look at the feed.
Path, South 2024-03-25 08.50.14.838 AM.jpg

However, this is what I see when someone walks down the path, 95' feet away.
Path_South.20240324_165742761.32.jpg

I then have these two cameras I can use to get a better idea/context of what they were doing and where they may have come from or gone to.
Easement 2024-03-24 06.51.42.709 PM.jpg

To put the above path images into perspective. The kill zone is between the green lines and the camera is on the fence at the bottom, center of the picture. You can see someone just entering the KZ and the 3.6mm focal length of this cam gives absolutely no details other than it might be a person.
Sky West 2024-03-24 06.32.51.485 PM.jpg

This is the person in the above wide angle shot, and there is no way you would have been able to tell it was a male, in a red, flannel shirt, with sunglasses, and a receding hairline.
Path, South 2024-03-24 06.32.55.683 PM.jpg


I am still fairly new to a proper system, but have learned a lot since signing up here. Below are a couple links to some of my threads which you might find helpful.

This is my on-going "build" thread.

Looking for advice on my install locations.

After posting my thread on where/whether to install the 4K-X I realized I may need to adjust the locations of some of my cameras and with Andy's sale coming up I wanted to get some opinions so I can buy any new hardware I may need. A little about where I live: My street is lit primarily by...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com

This is one I put together with images from my journey showing the differences between focal lengths, install heights, changing fields of view, etc.

"I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything..." - This is why you need specific FOVs with purposeful focal lengths.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since I signed up and wanted to share my experience and examples of improvements and changes for others who are coming from a "I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything" system mentality. My ongoing "build/looking for advice" thread can be found here...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
 
wittaj

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^This is another great example showing the difference between the wide angle detect what is going on, but comes at the cost of IDENTIFY.

You can see so much of what is going on around you and probably more than you would see looking out a window, but NO WAY would you be able to IDENTIFY the person in the picture walking past the left green line at the sidewalk.

1711372575357.png

And then your varifocal OPTICALLY zoomed in gets the IDENTIFY capture:

1711372661622.png

Great example! Thanks for sharing!
 
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ProjectGuy111

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Those are great and impressive examples- thanks for sharing. My property is not nearly as vast so I have to decide how far away I want to identify people. My current thought is about 40’ away (sidewalk across the street but any “kill boxes” I have are close to the house as I’m more concerned identifying people who are on my property.

The current door/gate cams are good at that (resolution notwithstanding). I currently have 3 cameras in the front but would be open to adding another for identification but not sure where I would aim it.

Later in the week when I am in front of my laptop I’ll post a diagram and the current views.
 
Ri22o

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ProjectGuy111 said:
Those are great and impressive examples- thanks for sharing. My property is not nearly as vast so I have to decide how far away I want to identify people. My current thought is about 40’ away (sidewalk across the street but any “kill boxes” I have are close to the house as I’m more concerned identifying people who are on my property.

The current door/gate cams are good at that (resolution notwithstanding). I currently have 3 cameras in the front but would be open to adding another for identification but not sure where I would aim it.

Later in the week when I am in front of my laptop I’ll post a diagram and the current views.
Click to expand...
My yard isn't super large, by any means, I just want to know who comes around my house. I could have a smaller lot and have the same goals. And the more I see, the more I want to see.

That was a pretty extreme example, but I was hoping it would get a point across that it's a give/take when it comes to details and context. Seeing what happened and knowing what happened are two different things.


Do you always park in the garage? Or do you have a car always in the driveway? An overview of the driveway with "door checker" positioned cams is always a good option. My Color4K-X in the top right is used as an overview, and the T54IR-ZE under the garage header is set to full 12mm zoom and used to capture ID as people walk up the driveway. I have since mounted another at the single bay.

FC6163EF-90CC-497F-A2F4-6B53EAD86DAB.jpeg
 
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ProjectGuy111

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Ri22o said:
My yard isn't super large, by any means, I just want to know who comes around my house. I could have a smaller lot and have the same goals. And the more I see, the more I want to see.

That was a pretty extreme example, but I was hoping it would get a point across that it's a give/take when it comes to details and context. Seeing what happened and knowing what happened are two different things.


Do you always park in the garage? Or do you have a car always in the driveway? An overview of the driveway with "door checker" positioned cams is always a good option. My Color4K-X in the top right is used as an overview, and the T54IR-ZE under the garage header is set to full 12mm zoom and used to capture ID as people walk up the driveway. I have since mounted another at the single bay.

View attachment 190521
Click to expand...
Point taken! And I love your house. I’ve got a small 1 car garage, with 3 cars (2 sit in the driveway). Real estate is tight in my area.

Since you have to be within 10 feet of a camera to access a vehicle I would need to think about the usefulness of zoom before they are out of frame (not ruling it out).

Once. I get time to put a diagram together and share some existing camera pics it will make more sense.

I totally get the “no free lunch” thing now (no one camera can do it all). Will have to design my new system with that in mind
 
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