Need help picking new cams

M

McCarthy

n3wb
Aug 27, 2019
27
10
FU
Some of my Vivotek and Hikvision cams are starting to fail after 10 years of constant use, most in a lot of Florida heat, and I need to replace them. Here my questions:


1.) I have 4 Hikvision dome cams outside that I want to replace with Vivotek turret cams due to IR leakage. Thinking about this model, 1080p at 30 FPS, IR and a mic is all I need.


Will I have more issues with bugs climbing over the sensor compared to a dome cam?


2.) Are there any "better" turret cams out? They need to be listed with Synology NAS because I use their Surveillance Station.


3.) I have 14 x 1080p cams running. All through a full size CISCO switch with 4 x 10 GB and 48 x 1 GB. CAT 7 cables. It all goes to a Synology 5 bay NAS, using their Surveillance Station. All live streams are set to 1080 and 30 FPS. I use 2 monitor stations. When looking at those monitor stations, I only get 15 FPS or so, with some frames freezing in-between for some milliseconds. Monitor stations are some 10 year old Lenovo Tiny ThinkCenters with i7s.

Is this a cam, network, NAS or monitor hardware issue? What do I need to do for 30 FPS from all cams, in all situations?


4.) Are there any Dome cams that don't have IR leakage? This is what I'm facing right now. I do not want to install separate IR lights.

1711984478724.png
 
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Why Vivotek? That will be a downgrade from Hikvision.

Stay away from Dome cameras outside. Your image is pretty typical of a dome over time. It needs a good cleaning. Or the dome has glazed over.

Turrets are much better options. Many people here are from Florida and have minimal problems with turrets.

Shutter speed is more important than FPS. I capture plates at 8FPS and the plate is in and out of the field of view in about a half second (so I capture 4 frames) because I am using the correct shutter speed for the task at hand.

You want to find cameras that are on the MP/sensor ratio in green that will perform well at night:


1711678081986.png



We are not making Hollywood movies with these things.

These types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. Some "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

Sure 30FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 30FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.

We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that. You need to find a camera for the intended purpose.

Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS






See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
 
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wittaj said:
Why Vivotek? That will be a downgrade from Hikvision.

Stay away from Dome cameras outside. Your image is pretty typical of a dome over time. It needs a good cleaning. Or the dome has glazed over.

Turrets are much better options. Many people here are from Florida and have minimal problems with turrets.

Shutter speed is more important than FPS. I capture plates at 8FPS and the plate is in and out of the field of view in about a half second (so I capture 4 frames) because I am using the correct shutter speed for the task at hand.

You want to find cameras that are on the MP/sensor ratio in green that will perform well at night:
We are not making Hollywood movies with these things.

These types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. Some "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

Sure 30FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 30FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.

We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that. You need to find a camera for the intended purpose.

Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS



See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
Click to expand...

My priority is a smooth video over sharp stills. I want to be able to see every move as its happening, and not moments where an intruder does something that I can't see because the system froze for a second or starts lagging. My system is not in place in order to file a police report.

Going by the first YT video, what I get to see is a mix of 20 FPS, followed by about 7 FPS for a couple seconds, sometimes followed by a short freeze, rinse and repeat, especially when something fast moves through the image. Even though I have the settings on 1080 @ 30 FPS, I don't get close to that FPS.

Besides the shutter speed suggestion, my question for now is, is this lagging a matter of my 10 year old Vivotek and Hikvision cams? Will new 1080 cams be better? Will a $500 cam be better? Is a 1 G network not enough? Is this Surveillance Station app from Synology on my NAS the problem? Is my NAS too slow? My monitor computers can't be it. I just installed Surveillance Station on my new i9, 4090 computer, it lags here too.
 
Trying to run 30FPS could be your problem and overloading your system. I can watch mine real time at 15FPS and know/see exactly what is going on and 30FPS wouldn't improve my ability to see what is going on.

Most here run 10-15FPS and do not experience the issue you have and know in real-time what is going on around them.

If you are getting that kind of lagging in your system, getting newer cams that can do 30FPS will only accentuate the problem.

You have a bottleneck somewhere in your system.

For kicks drop the resolution and FPS and see if the freezing you are experiencing goes away. Drop it to D1 resolution and 10FPS. If the freezing goes away it proves a problem in your network.

Are the cameras going thru your router or are they on VLAN? Are any of the cameras wifi?

In other words, if you unplug the router, can your cameras still get to the Surveillance Station? If the answer is no, that is your problem.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal or experience the freezing that you are getting. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.
 
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wittaj said:
Trying to run 30FPS could be your problem and overloading your system. I can watch mine real time at 15FPS and know/see exactly what is going on and 30FPS wouldn't improve my ability to see what is going on.

Most here run 10-15FPS and do not experience the issue you have and know in real-time what is going on around them.

If you are getting that kind of lagging in your system, getting newer cams that can do 30FPS will only accentuate the problem.

You have a bottleneck somewhere in your system.

For kicks drop the resolution and FPS and see if the freezing you are experiencing goes away. Drop it to D1 resolution and 10FPS. If the freezing goes away it proves a problem in your network.

Are the cameras going thru your router or are they on VLAN? Are any of the cameras wifi?

In other words, if you unplug the router, can your cameras still get to the Surveillance Station? If the answer is no, that is your problem.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.
Click to expand...


Thank you for taking the time, much appreciated.

The traffic does not go through my router. All cams are connected via Ethernet CAT 7 cable, going to a big Cisco SWITCH. When I unplug the router the streams still go to the NAS, and I can stream from the NAS. Router is non-wifi, I have 2 access points for that. Below a photo of my server rack.

I'll test the 15 FPS settings in the AM when there are people out walking by.

I also need to access the cams directly tomorrow, via browser, and see if that removes the lagging.



1712021126764.png
 
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Oh wow, yeah that should handle it.

I think it is probably the 10 year old Lenovo Tiny ThinkCenters that can't keep up?

And probably the age of the cameras are not helping either trying to push out 30FPS.

Have you tried shutting everything down and restarting and seeing if that gets rid of the lost packets that have slowly built up over time?

I have an older camera that I will see it get glitchy from time to time with the video feed and actually can cause some issues with the streaming of the other cameras. Simply rebooting that camera stabilizes the system again, so now it is on daily reboot until I replace it. I think that camera was just over zealous in trying to resend lost packets that they built up over time and flooded the network.
 
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wittaj said:
Oh wow, yeah that should handle it.

I think it is probably the 10 year old Lenovo Tiny ThinkCenters that can't keep up?

And probably the age of the cameras are not helping either trying to push out 30FPS.

Have you tried shutting everything down and restarting and seeing if that gets rid of the lost packets that have slowly built up over time?

I have an older camera that I will see it get glitchy from time to time with the video feed and actually can cause some issues with the streaming of the other cameras. Simply rebooting that camera stabilizes the system again, so now it is on daily reboot until I replace it. I think that camera was just over zealous in trying to resend lost packets that they built up over time and flooded the network.
Click to expand...


As I mentioned in a prior post, I just tried my brand new gaming computer as a monitor station, it lags here too. And that things has the newest hardware out there.

This lagging has been going on since I installed all this several years ago. I stopped bothering with it after fiddling with cam and Synology settings for a couple days, but now I want this fixed since I have to buy new cams to replace most old ones.

While I'm sitting here, I just saw a car go by on my monitor station, and realized that my only PTZ cam doesn't lag. This cam was much more expensive, somewhere in the $700 region.

I think I just need new and better cams. That being said, I was hoping to get away with no more than $150 a pop, because 8 of my 14 cams started acting up or have the IR leakage going on.

I don't need 4k, I want 1080 native chip resolution in order to keep bandwidth down, but that needs to be really smooth, with 30 FPS if possible.

Do you know any cams that will fit this bill and are less known to lag?

Do you think a 4k cam reduced to 1080 resolution will do better when it comes to lagging?
 
I assume you put surveillance rated HDD in the station?

Yeah it is certainly leaning toward the older/cheaper cams simply cannot keep up.

The problem with downrezing a camera is the camera still has to process the native resolution and then downrez it, so it could be problematic in some instances.

But at the same time, the chip in the 4K would be more powerful than the chip in the 2MP.

Before I knew any better and was running 30FPS thinking that was better, I ran this 2MP camera fine at 30FPS. This is the newest version with the S3 chipset, so it should be even better than my older version. This camera is a Dahua OEM sold by a member here:

 
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wittaj said:
I assume you put surveillance rated HDD in the station?

Yeah it is certainly leaning toward the older/cheaper cams simply cannot keep up.

The problem with downrezing a camera is the camera still has to process the native resolution and then downrez it, so it could be problematic in some instances.

But at the same time, the chip in the 4K would be more powerful than the chip in the 2MP.

Before I knew any better and was running 30FPS thinking that was better, I ran this 2MP camera fine at 30FPS. This is the newest version with the S3 chipset, so it should be even better than my older version. This camera is a Dahua OEM sold by a member here:

Click to expand...

That one is sold out everywhere.

I searched for "IPC-T3241T-ZA" on empiretech01.com but its not listed at all.

The only 2M cam I found here is this:

empiretech01.com

EmpireTech IPC-T22IR-ZAS-S3 1/2.8" CMOS 2MP IR Vari-focal Eyeball Turr

2-MP 1/2.8" CMOS image sensor, low luminance, and high definition image. Outputs max. 2 MP (1920 × 1080)@25/30 fps. H.265 codec, high compression rate, ultra-low bit rate. Built-in IR LED, and the max. illumination distance is 40 m. ROI, SMART H.264+/H.265+, flexible coding, applicable to...
empiretech01.com empiretech01.com

Is this the same quality?
 
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wittaj said:
Yeah that would be the newer model.
Click to expand...


EmpireTech is not listed as a supported brand for my Synology surveillance station software. but DAHUA is. I can't find the DAHUA equivalent model number to "IPC-T22IR-ZAS S3" in the list. Do you know what the DAHUA model number is?

www.synology.com

Surveillance Station IP Camera Support List | Synology Inc.

Synology Surveillance Station supports over 4000 IP cameras from 90 renowned brands. Here we listed all the models supported.
www.synology.com www.synology.com


Also, DAHUA got banned for spying, much like Hikvision. Can those cams potentially access all LAN traffic, or only be used to transmit the stream?
 
McCarthy said:
Some of my Vivotek and Hikvision cams are starting to fail after 10 years of constant use, most in a lot of Florida heat, and I need to replace them. Here my questions:


1.) I have 4 Hikvision dome cams outside that I want to replace with Vivotek turret cams due to IR leakage. Thinking about this model, 1080p at 30 FPS, IR and a mic is all I need.


Will I have more issues with bugs climbing over the sensor compared to a dome cam?


2.) Are there any "better" turret cams out? They need to be listed with Synology NAS because I use their Surveillance Station.


3.) I have 14 x 1080p cams running. All through a full size CISCO switch with 4 x 10 GB and 48 x 1 GB. CAT 7 cables. It all goes to a Synology 5 bay NAS, using their Surveillance Station. All live streams are set to 1080 and 30 FPS. I use 2 monitor stations. When looking at those monitor stations, I only get 15 FPS or so, with some frames freezing in-between for some milliseconds. Monitor stations are some 10 year old Lenovo Tiny ThinkCenters with i7s.

Is this a cam, network, NAS or monitor hardware issue? What do I need to do for 30 FPS from all cams, in all situations?


4.) Are there any Dome cams that don't have IR leakage? This is what I'm facing right now. I do not want to install separate IR lights.

View attachment 191138
Click to expand...

Hi @McCarthy

4.) Are there any Dome cams that don't have IR leakage? This is what I'm facing right now. I do not want to install separate IR lights.

Dome cameras eventually become problematic when exposed to heat and UV due to the decay and degradation of the dome and internal components to keep the IR lights within the dome from reflecting back into the lens.

This is why I like to recommend avoiding dome cameras outdoors in UV and heat exposed settings for most of us.

One option is the replace the seals and dome periodically if you really want dome cameras. For me the dome camera I typically use is a mini-dome wedge model at face level by the front door, which if I need to I am ok with upgrading or getting a replacement dome for that camera.

For many of us, we would just go with a better quality turret version for most positions outdoors.

McCarthy said:
EmpireTech is not listed as a supported brand for my Synology surveillance station software. but DAHUA is. I can't find the DAHUA equivalent model number to "IPC-T22IR-ZAS S3" in the list. Do you know what the DAHUA model number is?

www.synology.com

Surveillance Station IP Camera Support List | Synology Inc.

Synology Surveillance Station supports over 4000 IP cameras from 90 renowned brands. Here we listed all the models supported.
www.synology.com www.synology.com


Also, DAHUA got banned for spying, much like Hikvision. Can those cams potentially access all LAN traffic, or only be used to transmit the stream?
Click to expand...

Andy, EmpireTech sells Dahua OEM cameras .. name has to be changed to reflect the branding needs of Dahua .. the model number should be easy enough to match to Dahua Internation models. ( not, Dahua USA as they only carry a smaller subsection of models )

Synology and other VMS products typically only have a subsection of camera models ..

in terms of Dahua getting banned .. and Hikvision .. it's more than the question of "Spying", and it gets a bit more nuanced .. in general, for all IoT / including security cameras - plan to isolate them somehow. This includes the smartTVs you have .. and lightbulbs .. just a question of time when they get cracked ..
 
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mat200 said:
Hi @McCarthy

4.) Are there any Dome cams that don't have IR leakage? This is what I'm facing right now. I do not want to install separate IR lights.

Dome cameras eventually become problematic when exposed to heat and UV due to the decay and degradation of the dome and internal components to keep the IR lights within the dome from reflecting back into the lens.

This is why I like to recommend avoiding dome cameras outdoors in UV and heat exposed settings for most of us.

One option is the replace the seals and dome periodically if you really want dome cameras. For me the dome camera I typically use is a mini-dome wedge model at face level by the front door, which if I need to I am ok with upgrading or getting a replacement dome for that camera.

For many of us, we would just go with a better quality turret version for most positions outdoors.
Click to expand...



I have this ghosting / reflection issue at night from day one with those 4 Hikvision cams, so I don't think that cleaning or replacing the foam will do much of a difference. I can try and clean / fix one tomorrow and report back...
 
McCarthy said:
I have this ghosting / reflection issue at night from day one with those 4 Hikvision cams, so I don't think that cleaning or replacing the foam will do much of a difference. I can try and clean / fix one tomorrow and report back...
Click to expand...

Ghosting .. there's IR reflections, and then there's ghosting of the image .. in general older model cameras, cameras with smaller sensors, cameras with cheaper components, excessive compression, and in low light conditions and not properly tuned have a higher issue with ghosting of the image .. ( for example what you see on many Reolink cameras )

If from day one you have seen ghosting issues .. it is probably not the lens, unless the foam seal was not doing it's job well enough from the start .. or that the dome was dirty on the inside .. ( this does happen sometimes .. )
 
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Little update on those 4 dome cams with IR leakages. I cleaned the glass and added some foam.

The IR reflections are gone. :) Saves me 600 bucks right there. Thanks guys!

For the one dead indoor cam I ordered a VIVOTEK FD9369-F2 because all the VIVOTEK cams I own, have lasted 10 years without a single issue. They are also made in Taiwan and don't come with the risk of backdoors.

Now, I still need to replace 2 outdoor cams, and in this case I want bullets cams again. VIVOTEK doesn't offer bullets cams with microphones so I may try a EmpireTech IPC-B22IR-ZAS S3. They are on sale at Amazon for $128. I think I'll order one and test it within my Synology Surveillance Station, packet logger and all.



Like new:


Image1.png
 
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Glad you were able to clean up the IR bleed.

But all cameras can be hacked and have exploits. Here are just Vivotek and one this year already:

Vivotek : Security vulnerabilities, CVEs

Security vulnerabilities related to Vivotek : List of vulnerabilities affecting any product of this vendor
www.cvedetails.com


It is why we say don't let them have access to the internet!
 
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wittaj said:
Glad you were able to clean up the IR bleed.

But all cameras can be hacked and have exploits. Here are just Vivotek and one this year already:

Vivotek : Security vulnerabilities, CVEs

Security vulnerabilities related to Vivotek : List of vulnerabilities affecting any product of this vendor
www.cvedetails.com


It is why we say don't let them have access to the internet!
Click to expand...


So all cams in their own vlan? What about the NAS that runs the Surveillance Station? Doesn't that have to be on the same vlan? And that NAS needs to have internet so that I can check the streams when I'm not home.
 
Most of us set up and host a VPN like OpenVPN so that our video system isn't touching the internet via port forward or P2P. This is free and not a paid VPN.

How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!)

Many camera networks are unsecure, even those installed by professionals. This guide gives basic instruction in how to secure a camera network from the most common types of attacks. Perhaps the most important rule of securing a computer network is to not forward ports to unsecure services...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
 
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wittaj said:
Most of us set up and host a VPN like OpenVPN so that our video system isn't touching the internet via port forward or P2P. This is free and not a paid VPN.

How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!)

Many camera networks are unsecure, even those installed by professionals. This guide gives basic instruction in how to secure a camera network from the most common types of attacks. Perhaps the most important rule of securing a computer network is to not forward ports to unsecure services...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
Click to expand...


Thank you. This will be a weekend project. I just order that EmpireTech IPC-B22IR-ZAS S3.
 
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