16 IP Camera Solution for Restaurant??

[Peja]

I posted this on a different message board before I saw this one even existed so thank you networkcameracritic for mentioning this site on yours. From reading, everyone here seems pleasant and there is good traffic on this board.

Anyways, here is what I am needing. Forgive me for posting this if this isn't the right sub forum but I didn't see one for system design.

I've installed coax type surveillance systems in the past but now I need some advice on putting together a digital camera system for some restaurants that will be remodeled in a few months. Since these will be in restaurants, I will have them in corners of the dining rooms and over entrances for the most part, as well as in the kitchens. I won't need them over tills or anything as there are other safeguards in place to protect against theft but it wouldn't hurt to see the computer stations. I'm thinking 16 will be enough to cover the areas I need. 3 over the entrances which leaves 13 throughout the rest of the building. I would like to go IP as it gives the best quality with those nice mega pix cameras as well as the ease of running just cat5e or cat6. My budget will be around 4-5k per location but cheaper is always better as long as the quality and future proofing is there. Here are some of my questions. 1. Is it easier to go with a built NVR or make my own server? I need something reliable that won't require much work as a lot of these locations are in different states. In case I ever needed to add more cameras, I was looking at the Hikvision DS-9632NI-ST. Is that over kill or are the specs any good? 2. For a week to two weeks worth of storage, how big would the drives need to be for that many MP cameras? 3. Do most people recommend Hikvision? Is there a better brand out there? I know there are many many companies but it seems like Hikvision and Duhua get most of the love around here. I am also located in the USA. 4. I would like to be able to access cameras from mobile devices such as a phone. Any issue with that? Can multiple mobile devices access at the same time? 5. Can you recommend a good camera with good quality that can also record audio (built in or separate mic?)? Is it possible to turn audio off on some cameras and leave it on others? Is audio only through SD cards or can the recorded or live audio be accessed through the streaming on the net when viewing that NVR from the corporate office? I have checked my local laws and see audio is ok as long as you have a sign posted saying the premise is being monitored by video/audio or both. 6. Do I go cat5e or 6? 7. Do I go built in POE or is it more reliable to use an external POE switch? 8. The outdoor coax cameras I have used in the past didn't need to be housed in a blower/warmer even in my cold temps. Do the IP cameras need to be? Any problem with putting one in the walk in fridge at a constant 35 degrees? Also, for a few of the cameras in the kitchen, I suppose dome would be best as grease tends to cover walls and ceilings. Would be much easier to clean. Anything else I need to know? Sorry about such the long post but I just want to give as much info as I can to best suit my needs. Hopefully get the product in and test it for a month before installing it. Thanks Community.... Peja

 

[bp2008]

1. NVRs can work, but you have to be careful and read all the specs. For example the one you linked says it will accept 32 cameras, yet under network bandwidth it says "Up to 80 Mbps input" which is just 2.5 Mbps per camera. That is well into the low side. Now in all likelihood you won't actually run 32 cameras and you'll actually be able to use 4+ Mbps for each camera which is much better. Just something to be aware of.

2. Lets assume you are using the entire input bit rate of that NVR above. Google can calculate this easily: (80 Mbps) * (2 weeks) = 12.09600 terabytes. 12TB of actual hard drives is likely to only deliver 10 to 11 TB of usable space, of course. That is a respectable 5 Mbps per camera for 16 cameras.

3. I recommend Hikvision too, as I've had better luck with them than with Dahua. There are others who will say the opposite though.

4. No issues as long as you have adequate internet speed. Yes, multiple mobile devices can access at the same time.

5. DS-2CD2532-IS. It is pretty small and I think it has a built-in microphone ... though there is a no-audio version of this cam, so be careful. I don't have any of them myself. DS-2CD2432F-I is an entirely different style, but I have one of them and audio capture works well with its built-in microphone. You can turn microphone volume down to 0, but if you have a location where audio capture is prohibited it is probably best to just buy a cam that doesn't have a microphone as that will give you more options. There are other cams too, just look through Hikvision's product library. Be aware that any dome with IR LEDs behind the same glass as the lens has an increased chance of IR bleed causing a foggy picture in the dark.

6. Both will work, cat6 is more future-proof. Do not buy cables that are made with copper clad aluminum (CCA). Only get solid copper cables.

7. The built-in PoE on an NVR should be fine. Otherwise they wouldn't include it.... External POE switches are often compatible and can help with connecting groups of cameras that are far away from the NVR. External POE switches are of course a necessity if you don't run an NVR with PoE ports.

8. Most IP cameras by Hikvision are rated to -22 F / -30 C so they are fine in most climates without any extra effort. Putting one in a fridge or even a freezer is fine, though I don't know, maybe fogging could become an issue due to all the warm air coming in the door all the time.

 

[Peja]

Thank you for the well detailed information and suggestions bp. This definitely will help me deciding where to go from here. Just a few follow up questions if you could.

1. You're right that I probably will never use all 32 cameras. I can honestly see 20 cameras at the most but as of right now, we will stick with 16 I believe. I am looking on hikvision's site and I assume their 9600 series is their best of the best but where would I find the network bandwidth section. Is it in the downloaded spec sheets? Can you recommend a better nvr for my application?

2. Thank you for the calculator within google. Never thought about doing that but makes sense.

3. I think I will stick with Hikvision.

4. Internet speed will be good enough. With the remodels, we will bump up down and up speed as well.

5. I like the idea of that small footprint dome camera. And the fact it has built in audio. Does the DS-2cd2432F-I that you have the ability to move on the 3 axis or is there only one mounting style? That may make it difficult to mount in certain locations. The domes are usually easy enough since it will mount on wall or ceiling. For cameras out in the dining room, would bullets be better suited or should I just stick with the one you have or domes?

6. Cat6 it is.

7. I will just use a DVR with built in POE. Does that mean there is a rj-45 port on the back for each camera location?

8. Good to know I won't need any special housings. I thought about the fog factor as well. I figure if I can put one far enough back in the walk in, the fog may be less of a factor than if I put it right by the door.



Thanks again BP.

 

[nayr]

Bandwidth depends on configuration, for example on my Dahua's the max bitrate is 8Mbps.. (see if you can find Bitrate ranges in specs).. so 16 cameras at 100% quality would need approx 128Mbit
if I tuned those down to half quality, 4Mbps they would need 64Mbit

Since you have alot of cams, possibly more in future I'd look for an NVR with at least 200Mbit recording rate... give you some overhead.

Few NVR's will have enough PoE ports for possibly 20 cameras, definitely not for 32 cameras.. with this many cams I'd suggest getting a non-poe NVR and either bring your own PoE switch or midspan into the mix.. if your going to provide WiFi at the restaurants you might like a few extra PoE ports for access points.. might get a managed switch that can do VLAN's if you want to have a Employee WiFi (with access to IPCams) and a Patron WiFi

 

[bp2008]

1. See the specifications tab here: http://www.hikvision.com/en/us/Products_show.asp?id=5575

I don't use NVRs myself. I use a powerful PC running Blue Iris. A system costing just $500-600 refurbished (plus the cost of disks) would be able to handle 16 cameras fairly well, depending on what software you used. For example I use Blue Iris on an i7-3770k system with 20 cameras totaling 63 megapixels, most of these using motion detection. I have to use every trick in the book to keep constant CPU usage below 50% (remote viewing increases Blue Iris' CPU usage). I have to run direct to disk recording and I still can't manage frame rates higher than 3 to 6 FPS on most of the cameras. If I had an all-Hikvision system I could use Hikvision's free iVMS software which would give me full frame rates and lower CPU usage. All things considered, an NVR is probably more reliable and would require less knowledge to operate properly. A PC gives you a lot of flexibility, but also more complexity.

4. Upload speed is what matters most. If you can get more than about 4 Mbps upload you should be pretty well off, but you can make do with less. More is usually better, too.

5. The 2432 is fairly flexible for mounting. It does have 3 axis rotation. It is a lot like a bullet camera in that regard. One of the nicest things about the 2432 though is the fact it has a PIR (passive infrared) motion sensor on it, which will detect motion with a lot fewer false alarms compared to traditional motion detection that is based on image analysis. The 2532 mini dome is also 3 axis, but with more limited movement range.

7. Yes, most NVR boxes have all the rj-45 ports that you need already built in with PoE support. Some, I'm sure, do not, so it would be best to check the product manual first.

8. Yup, all my nine Hikvision 2032 bullets have survived one winter so far, but it didn't really get super cold. Just about 0 F was the worst of it. But a lot of other folks had them get a whole lot lower with no hiccups.

 

[Peja]

nayr and BP, it looks like for a few hundred dollars more, I could get the DS-9664NI-ST which would double the input to 160mbit. I am not sure if this is overkill for me or not. Seems like it would be but I am all new to this. If I did do the 32 channel nvr and only had 20 cameras, would my fps be poor? Do you still set it to around 10-15?

If these were local cameras I would more than likely run a PC based server but since they aren't, I think going with an NVR will be the most reliable and dummy proof for other users.

Good information on the 2432 and great to know the 2032 will stand up to winters.

I appreciate the help and once we get this NVR thing narrowed down, I will start looking at putting cameras together. Any go to source for Hikvision equipment? Most general searches I have seen were just done on amazon. But I see others when I research on google shopping.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[nayr]

I think 160Mbps would better for you, should handle all your cameras at full resolution, high quality and good framerate.

standalone NVR is well suited for your needs. If you go with all Hik cameras and there NVR they will work well together and you can output the live streams to a standard TV if you want to put a monitor in a managers office or in a staff area so servers can see all the tables or a back patio, etc.

Since you sound like your gona end up with a alot of cameras and NVR's spread out I'd find a local distributer whom will treat you well, give you support and warranty the hardware.. iirc we have some forum members here who might be able to help you out and the'd come highly recommended.

Dont forget to add in a battery backup and figure out a secure location for the NVR, lock it up and hide it from employees.

 

[bp2008]

milkisbad on this forum may be able to help.

http://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php?257-Good-source-to-buy-Hikvision-items-at

 

[Peja]

Thanks guys. I unfortunately do not have a local distributor that deals with IP cameras yet. They do a little but their setups and software aren't of any brand I have seen. And they buy from someone else so no point in going through them.

I have been talking with milkisbad and maybe we can work something out.

Thanks again.