5442 Verifocal vs Fixed

craigscott

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Hi All,

Looking at buying the 5442 Verifocal so I can go and check where I want my cameras placed and what focal lengths I need elsewhere etc. Ive also seen some discussion around the Verifocal not being as good as the fixed in low light situations due to a slight aperture difference.

Could anyone help me as to whether its that noticeable, I am thinking, if I just get all Verifocal (cost permitting) then I can really just get every placement perfect. Would that benefit far outweigh the slight performance increase?

Thank you in advance!

Craig
 

wittaj

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A varifocal that can capture the distance you are trying to capture will beat out a fixed lens not capable of making identifiable captures at that same distance all day long.

That is the bigger issue and except for an overview camera or one that is only intended to identify someone within 10 feet of the camera that would make sense with a fixed cam, I am going varifocal all day long.
 

bigredfish

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Its true that a fixed lens of the same series will generally be a bit better in low light than the VF especially once zoomed. As you zoom, the Fstop gets bigger allowing less light.

With the Dahua 5442 series for example there are 3 types to consider.
Regular VF (great)
Fixed ASE (a bit better low light)
Fixed -ASE-NI (best low light)

This post shows the difference between and 5442 VF and ASE fixed lens bullets
Review: Dahua HFW5442T-ASE 4MP Starlight+

This post show the difference between the std ASE and ASE-NI versions of a 3.6mm bullet
Review: OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Pro AI Starlight Full-color Fixed Bullet
 
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craigscott

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Thanks!

Thats really useful - another quick question, how much ambient light does the ASE-NI model need as its got no IR?

Kind regards

Craig
 

bigredfish

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I don’t have an accurate way to measure or determine that as there are so many variables.
Shutter speed, direction of the light, distance to object, color vs B&W, etc...
(Remember the NI can’t see IR but it can be used in B&W mode)

I will say that cameras in general need more light (IR or white light) than most think to actually perform well ie: usable image. (no ghosting or motion blur).
If movement isn’t a concern and you just want pretty stills without motion, then you can run a slower shutter with less light of course.

The NI models obviously need less than others, but I’d start with 1200-1500 lumens facing the same direction as the camera at 10-25 ft for starters if running color at night. But you’ll probably want more.

I have two 1200 lumen coach lights that light my vehicles/driveway out to 25 ft. I’m able to run 1/120 exposure (color) which at night is sorta my min to get no or at least insignificant motion blur. I also have a 3400 lumen motion activated flood that supplements those and makes it “daytime” when a person gets close to the vehicles.

So depends on your objective. Mine is positive facial ID where possible.

Of course I have plenty of cameras running IR that get good results with no real ambient light at those same distances, but obviously lack color.
 

craigscott

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That is really useful, thank you!

My new place will have a streetlight out the front but I actually don't know what the light levels will be like yet. I know over the driveway I will floodlight it, but at the front I will not so may need to rely on IR.

My aim is to have positive Facial ID and I would like to record motion and not stills.

I originally just thought throw the Vari-focal in everywhere but the difference between that and the ASE is actually quite noticeable, but I need to learn what focal ranges I actually need!

I know this is subjective - however if the varifocal gives positive Face ID's still at night, I may be able to live with the slight loss of clarity at night and make my life easier with Varifocals.

Being in the UK, shipping is a pain in the arse and so wanted to try and combine all in one order, but I get that may not be the right thing to do!

So many decisions! :)
 

wittaj

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The LEDs on cameras are kinda gimmicky - you need way more light for the tiny sensors in these cameras. They are kinda like the LED on your cell phone - how far out and bright is it really to get a good photo of someone not moving.... Go with true flood lights and a camera that can go into B/W IR if needed.

ALL cameras need light at night. Simple physics. Marketing a camera as low light and full color doesn't change that fact. As some folks are finding out, some of these cameras play with parameters that make them look nice and bright at night, but when there is motion, it is a complete blur and ghosting. I can make a crap camera look like noon at midnight by adjusting the parameters and make it look great as a still picture, but as soon as motion is introduced, it is blur and ghost city. How many perps will stop for 5 seconds so that your camera can get a clean shot of them...

If there isn't enough light, then you want to get a camera that has infrared, but then it will be B/W. Once you take it off auto settings, you will notice that the viewing distance isn't as advertised. Do you want 120 feet but it is all blurry or 25 feet but good clean images.

You would be surprised how much light these cameras need to stay in color at night (for the cameras that can switch to B/W with IR).

I have 33,000 lumen radiating off my house and I have to force my other cameras in color as it is not enough light for the camera to automatically stay in color at night. The sensors are small in cameras and need a lot of light.

I have enough light at this location that the LED white light on the camera didn’t make a difference. So with this 1/120 shutter speed, I wanted to see if the camera could perform with only the LED white light from the camera and the flood lights turned off. As you can see from this video, it barely recognized me at these settings. You would need to run 1/30 shutter with just the LED light light of the camera to be able to start to make a person out, but the image is way too dark and will start to be motion blur.

The average Joe will not spend the time to calibrate and will just leave the settings on auto and love the great still image they get and then just accept a blur/ghost motion at night. When do we need these to perform - at night!

Keep in mind that with the shutter at auto, it is a nice bright image, but motion was a blur...once you dial the camera in to actually be usable, you see the limitations...


When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet which was how far the perp was from neighbors car when it got ransacked. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back.

Of course YMMV - as @bigredfish points out - there are too many variables - some people have more light like street lights than others and many are running different shutter speeds and those two are the biggest influences on night captures. I cannot run many of mine at the same shutter as @bigredfish
 
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how about this to make things simple: get a 5442 6mm fixed at 6' from ground for dedicated facial ID's, and then get 1 or 2 varifocal 5442's for general purpose wider FOV's.
I learned having fixed cameras are great, for today. But later on when you have to move them to a better location, you would wished it was a varifocal due to different situation. I bought many 2.8mm cameras to start with thinking wider FOV the better. I was wrong.
 

wittaj

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how about this to make things simple: get a 5442 6mm fixed at 6' from ground for dedicated facial ID's, and then get 1 or 2 varifocal 5442's for general purpose wider FOV's.
I learned having fixed cameras are great, for today. But later on when you have to move them to a better location, you would wished it was a varifocal due to different situation. I bought many 2.8mm cameras to start with thinking wider FOV the better. I was wrong.
And the wider FOV is why the Arlos, Ring, Nest, Swann, Night Owl, etc. consumer grade stuff you buy at big box stores are so popular...people see that and are like "wow I can put one on each corner of the house and have complete coverage with only 4 cameras..."

It is easy to get suckered into that - my first ones were kits with 2.8mm and I was like wow I can see the whole neighborhood. Yeah, I can see something happened, but not ID it.

Let's be real, if consumer grade showed their camera can only cover a small centralized area that we run some of our cams at, they would never sell next to the competing brand showing a wider image...Average consumer wants brightness and wider views and those two are the perfect recipe for ghost and blur at night and then many of these same companies have convinced people that it is simply a limitation of night videos...

And then I start researching and came across this site and was like wow cameras can do better and now I will never buy a camera from a big box store again!
 

rjwerth

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A PSA from your friendly lighting designer forum member:

Folks, when it comes to measuring light for good quality video, you cannot use lumens. Please measure the actual light cast on an area in foot-candles or lux. It is a lot like saying you are using 100w light bulbs. You get a very different output of light if that lamp (light bulb) is old tungston, quartz, or LED. If you tell someone that you are using a 1000 lumen lamp (bulb for the average Joe), that is only telling that person how much light TOTAL is coming out of that lamp....in ALL directions. A 1000 lumen lamp designed to be a replacement for an "A" lamp (your everyday bulb, if you will) will not light up an area with the same intensity as a 1000 lumen lamp that has a built-in reflector such as a PAR 38 replacement as light is being gathered from the source and reflected into a specific direction.

So when you say "I'm using an xxxx lumen light" it does not give nearly enough information for folks to replicated whatever scenario you have. Now, if you tell them that you have successfully lit your yard so that the typical light level is 2 foot-candles, that is much more helpful. You could also be specific as to the lamp and fixture type along with the throw to explain your results. You have to be specific because different manufacturers can use different methods of measuring lumens and of course, different fixtures will have different beam spreads.
 

bigredfish

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A PSA from your friendly lighting designer forum member:

Folks, when it comes to measuring light for good quality video, you cannot use lumens. Please measure the actual light cast on an area in foot-candles or lux. It is a lot like saying you are using 100w light bulbs. You get a very different output of light if that lamp (light bulb) is old tungston, quartz, or LED. If you tell someone that you are using a 1000 lumen lamp (bulb for the average Joe), that is only telling that person how much light TOTAL is coming out of that lamp....in ALL directions. A 1000 lumen lamp designed to be a replacement for an "A" lamp (your everyday bulb, if you will) will not light up an area with the same intensity as a 1000 lumen lamp that has a built-in reflector such as a PAR 38 replacement as light is being gathered from the source and reflected into a specific direction.

So when you say "I'm using an xxxx lumen light" it does not give nearly enough information for folks to replicated whatever scenario you have. Now, if you tell them that you have successfully lit your yard so that the typical light level is 2 foot-candles, that is much more helpful. You could also be specific as to the lamp and fixture type along with the throw to explain your results. You have to be specific because different manufacturers can use different methods of measuring lumens and of course, different fixtures will have different beam spreads.

Im quite sure you’re right, but I dont have a handy tool to tell me the lux in my driveway vs the sidewalk vs my entryway.

will this one do?
 
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wittaj

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We need to have a community luxmeter that we can send around to members to test light for the area their camera is focused in on as that would be probably even more valuable in helping to decide camera choices!:cool:
 
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Jay Roman

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A PSA from your friendly lighting designer forum member:

Folks, when it comes to measuring light for good quality video, you cannot use lumens. Please measure the actual light cast on an area in foot-candles or lux. It is a lot like saying you are using 100w light bulbs. You get a very different output of light if that lamp (light bulb) is old tungston, quartz, or LED. If you tell someone that you are using a 1000 lumen lamp (bulb for the average Joe), that is only telling that person how much light TOTAL is coming out of that lamp....in ALL directions. A 1000 lumen lamp designed to be a replacement for an "A" lamp (your everyday bulb, if you will) will not light up an area with the same intensity as a 1000 lumen lamp that has a built-in reflector such as a PAR 38 replacement as light is being gathered from the source and reflected into a specific direction.

So when you say "I'm using an xxxx lumen light" it does not give nearly enough information for folks to replicated whatever scenario you have. Now, if you tell them that you have successfully lit your yard so that the typical light level is 2 foot-candles, that is much more helpful. You could also be specific as to the lamp and fixture type along with the throw to explain your results. You have to be specific because different manufacturers can use different methods of measuring lumens and of course, different fixtures will have different beam spreads.
Are there any light bulbs or lights fixtures that you recommend???

I've heard start out with 5000k lumens . What do you recommend?
 
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I've heard start out with 5000k lumens .
5000k is the color temperature, not the lumens. 5000k is basically daylight. That is what I run in all my fixtures at the front of the house.

The coach lights at my garage and front porch have two 1000 lumen, blunt tip, chandelier style LED bulbs in each.

The recessed pot lights on the front porch are TBR40 LED at 1750 lumens each.

Front Lighting.JPG
 
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craigscott

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how about this to make things simple: get a 5442 6mm fixed at 6' from ground for dedicated facial ID's, and then get 1 or 2 varifocal 5442's for general purpose wider FOV's.
I learned having fixed cameras are great, for today. But later on when you have to move them to a better location, you would wished it was a varifocal due to different situation. I bought many 2.8mm cameras to start with thinking wider FOV the better. I was wrong.
Thanks, thats a great suggestion. I really need to understand where I need cameras and until I actually get one and see what the focal length looks like and whether it gives me the best trade between FOV and ability to identify.

Another quick Q - With Turret Cams, is the movement in all directions good enough that I can mount them on a wall (say on the house) and then have it look down the driveway that runs alongside the house. If that makes sense?
 
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