Active deterrence or TiOC 2.0?

[mosesman831]

Hi all, I would like to install a new camera in my front garden which contains my 2 cars. One of my cars has been broken into a few weeks ago, so I would like to install a camera that will deter them as well.

I have 2 choices, either a 5MP IPC-HDW2549T-S-PV (Active Deterrence) or a 5MP IPC-HDW3549H-AS-PV-S3. The price difference is minor (~£20) and I’ve found them for a pretty good deal.

As I can’t find any other information on the spec sheets or the forum, is there any difference between Active deterrence and TiOC 2.0 except red and blue strobe lights? Would you guys recommend the TiOC or the Active deterrence? Thank you.

 

[wittaj]

We wouldn't recommend either one as they are not on the ideal MP/sensor ratio.

This is the one we would recommend as it is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio (Dahua 3449-Pro):

EmpireTech IPC-Color4M-T 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP Smart Dual Light Active Deter

4-MP 1/1.8" CMOS | Built-in multi-core light | Max. IR distance is 30 m | Max. warm light distance is 30 m | Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, tripwire | Supports max. 512 G Micro SD card | Built-in dual Mic | Support two-way talk | IP67 protection | Sound and light alarm (red and blue lights)...

empiretech01.com

Next would be how far is your car from the camera? The fixed lens is only good to IDENTIFY at about 15ish feet out.

 

[mosesman831]

thanks for your response.

Firstly my front yard is only around 20ft away from my camera, as it is the uk, we don’t have big front yards .

Secondly, I have seen one of your older posts referencing sensor size


2MP = 1/2.8"
4MP = 1/1.8"
8MP = 1/1.2"

But I would like to purchase these cameras on a budget, and all I could find are
8MP 1/2.8, 5MP, 1/2.7
These are all my options I can do, any ideas?

 

[wittaj]

There is a saying here - "buy once, cry once".

I too went the cheap way and now have boxes of unused cameras that I bought cause they were cheap and ended up replacing them because they just didn't cut it.

If I had waited, I could save that money up to buy a better camera.

But if you are adamant you want to go cheap, the 5MP will outperform the 8MP at night. But a 2MP would outperform both of those.

 

[wittaj]

Here is a recent example someone posted with an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor (1/1.2" sensor) - which image looks better to you?

Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor (this is just the regular 5442 camera that I forced into color instead of using infrared):

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

 

[Ri22o]

This isn't a dig at the OP, or anyone in particular, but why is it the only people who ever seem to want the active deterrence or TiOC cameras are always from a country other than the US?

 

[Chokolinho]

thanks for your response.

Firstly my front yard is only around 20ft away from my camera, as it is the uk, we don’t have big front yards .

Secondly, I have seen one of your older posts referencing sensor size


2MP = 1/2.8"
4MP = 1/1.8"
8MP = 1/1.2"

But I would like to purchase these cameras on a budget, and all I could find are
8MP 1/2.8, 5MP, 1/2.7
These are all my options I can do, any ideas?

You can buy the cameras from andy. I made the same mistake and changing them all out with 1/1.8 Wizmind-S cameras.

 

[Chokolinho]

This isn't a dig at the OP, or anyone in particular, but why is it the only people who ever seem to want the active deterrence or TiOC cameras are always from a country other than the US?

I need at least 1-2 Tioc cameras.

 

[Chokolinho]

Here is a recent example someone posted with an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor (1/1.2" sensor) - which image looks better to you?

Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor (this is just the regular 5442 camera that I forced into color instead of using infrared):

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

Do you have a separate Lan cable for each camera or how do you do it?

 

[Chokolinho]

This isn't a dig at the OP, or anyone in particular, but why is it the only people who ever seem to want the active deterrence or TiOC cameras are always from a country other than the US?

The reason why I need Tioc cameras after the incident. At that time there was only a Reolink 822a with 1/2.8 sensor and 4k.

 

[wittaj]

Do you have a separate Lan cable for each camera or how do you do it?

Ideally it is a separate cable for each camera.

But most of us don't think that far out and don't run enough cables, so then we use these types of adapters to expand our system LOL:

2 ends on each side

One to split off at end point

I use both. They each have pros and cons.

 

[Chokolinho]

Ideally it is a separate cable for each camera.

But most of us don't think that far out and don't run enough cables, so then we use these types of adapters to expand our system LOL:

2 ends on each side

One to split off at end point

I use both. They each have pros and cons.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I only put one cable there. ^^ I would like to operate an IPC-HFW5442H-Z4HE and an IPC-HDW3449H-AS-PV-PRO there. Then the lower cable would probably be the right choice.

 

[tigerwillow1]

Then the lower cable would probably be the right choice.

Just FYI, if you're using an NVR with built in POE ports, the second device, which is a POE-powered 2-port switch, won't work for you . There is a possible exception if you put the built-in switch into bridge mode and assign static IP addresses to all of your cameras. If you're using an external POE switch the only possible gotcha is with a 15 watt POE port (i.e. not POE+), you will be very close to the port power limit when both cameras have their internal lighting running full blast. With the first solution, you have a very close electrical equivalent of having run two ethernet cables.

 

[mosesman831]

Here is a recent example someone posted with an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor (1/1.2" sensor) - which image looks better to you?

Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor (this is just the regular 5442 camera that I forced into color instead of using infrared):

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

I understand now, it is like 1/2.8 and divide that by the megapixel, you’ll like the area of CMOS per megapixel what you mean, I have a full colour 2MP and a similar sensor 5MP, I can see during the night the 2MP performs even better without the illuminator on.
If I buy the 8MP and set the settings to 2MP, will it still have the same terrible night vision?

This isn't a dig at the OP, or anyone in particular, but why is it the only people who ever seem to want the active deterrence or TiOC cameras are always from a country other than the US?

we have small houses and want convenient systems to deter criminals. I have an alarm system in my house but would like to have a professional nvr system instead of those WiFi battery cameras.

I guess instead I can get a cheap 2MP 2.7 or a 4MP 1.8 and use the dry contact to attach to one of these light and siren instead of purchasing a TiOC camera without the right resolution and aperture.

What will I need if I want to connect to one of these? I will need to connect a live and a neutral wire, but what do I need to connect it to the cameras alarm output?

Could any of you send the links of any TiOC or active deterrence cameras with the right resolution and aperture (any, 2, 4, 8).

My area is generally safe so I don’t really want to spend too much on a cctv system, so I might be cheaping out a bit on this system…

 

[wittaj]

I am glad you have a frame of reference to what we are talking about - that helps!

I sent the link to the only active deterrence on the ideal MP/sensor ratio above.

Nope, downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 4MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 8MP to 4MP, so the native 4MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 4MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from Andy based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.



Here is a real world example from the 49225 (2MP on 1/2.8" sensor) versus 49425 (4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor)

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

Now for the downrez.

The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP 49425 down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP 49225 as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.

As always YMMV and I am sure the newer cameras are improved over when this camera came out, but even so I don't think we see a higher MP downrez come close to the performance of a native MP on the same size sensor because the higher MP just isn't letting enough light into the optics as the lower MP on the same size sensor.

And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

 

[mosesman831]

I am glad you have a frame of reference to what we are talking about - that helps!

I sent the link to the only active deterrence on the ideal MP/sensor ratio above.

Nope, downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 4MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 8MP to 4MP, so the native 4MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 4MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from Andy based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.



Here is a real world example from the 49225 (2MP on 1/2.8" sensor) versus 49425 (4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor)

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

Now for the downrez.

The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP 49425 down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP 49225 as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.

As always YMMV and I am sure the newer cameras are improved over when this camera came out, but even so I don't think we see a higher MP downrez come close to the performance of a native MP on the same size sensor because the higher MP just isn't letting enough light into the optics as the lower MP on the same size sensor.

And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

Thanks for your reply. Isn't the link you gave me the just the TiOC Pro series (IPC-HDW3449H-AS-PV-PRO, IPC-HDW3649H-AS-PV-PRO, IPC-HDW3849H-AS-PV-PRO)? Will this be more budget friendly or just a cheap 2MP 1/2.8 (e.g. IPC-HFW2241T-ZAS) with alarm output and use the dry contact to connect to an external siren and light.

I guess instead I can get a cheap 2MP 2.7 or a 4MP 1.8 and use the dry contact to attach to one of these light and siren instead of purchasing a TiOC camera without the right resolution and aperture.

What will I need if I want to connect to one of these? I will need to connect a live and a neutral wire, but what do I need to connect it to the cameras alarm output?

 

[wittaj]

The one I linked is 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor. It is basically a TIOC version of the ever popular 5442 series camera.

 

[mosesman831]

The one I linked is 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor. It is basically a TIOC version of the ever popular 5442 series camera.

IPC-HDW3449H-AS-PV-PRO is a 4MP 1/1.8 TiOC pro camera with similar looks and functions.

I have also found a 2MP 1/2.8 DH-IPC-HDW3249H-AS-PV which is a discontinued 2MP 1/2.8 TiOC 1.0 model. I think this will be quite a good choice considering it has good night light but lacks an IR light. Will it be possible for the illuminator to only to turn on IF someone crosses a tripwire but stays off when the person is outside of the perimeter?

 

[wittaj]

The 3249 white light has to be on or off. Only the red/blue triggers by motion.

The 3449 series the white light can come on with motion.

 

[Ri22o]

I understand now, it is like 1/2.8 and divide that by the megapixel, you’ll like the area of CMOS per megapixel what you mean, I have a full colour 2MP and a similar sensor 5MP, I can see during the night the 2MP performs even better without the illuminator on.
If I buy the 8MP and set the settings to 2MP, will it still have the same terrible night vision?

we have small houses and want convenient systems to deter criminals. I have an alarm system in my house but would like to have a professional nvr system instead of those WiFi battery cameras.

I guess instead I can get a cheap 2MP 2.7 or a 4MP 1.8 and use the dry contact to attach to one of these light and siren instead of purchasing a TiOC camera without the right resolution and aperture.
View attachment 215450
What will I need if I want to connect to one of these? I will need to connect a live and a neutral wire, but what do I need to connect it to the cameras alarm output?

Could any of you send the links of any TiOC or active deterrence cameras with the right resolution and aperture (any, 2, 4, 8).

My area is generally safe so I don’t really want to spend too much on a cctv system, so I might be cheaping out a bit on this system…

I guess this just doesn't seem to really be something people in the US go for. We usually just add cameras, have a security system, and they are there own things.