AI Cameras for Community Security

[MarkL51]

I have been asked to seek out some recommendations for security cameras for our community crime watch organization. Initially, we want to cover traffic in both directions on the two roads that lead into the area (so 4 cameras total). We were first targeting cameras and systems with LPR (such as Turing) which allow AI searching of the recorded videos. More recently it was decided that it would be enough if we can retrieve vehicle information (type, color, make, etc.) and possibly driver images. AI search is still a necessity as our area has a lot of "weekend" homes where people might not come for a month or longer, and visually searching through that much video would be impossible. There is a reluctance to go with Chinese systems (Dahua, Hikvision, etc.) due to security risks with those.

Cameras will be mounted at locations occupied by active community members, so using PoE is very likely. One question is whether a single NVR at a central location (the community center), with cameras forwarding to it, would work, or if we will want an NVR at each location where the cameras are located. (There is 100/100mbps fiber internet available). Our initial budget is limited to around $7000, but if we can spend less that's no problem.

Doing online searches for things such as "best security cameras" just leads to mostly biased "review" sites that are just marketing gimmicks. I was happy to come across this community where I can hear opinions from knowledgeable users. I look forward to your thoughts, and let me know if you need any further information or have any questions for me.

 

[bigredfish]

I have two poles with 3-4 cameras each mounted at our little HOA neighborhood.
Its a culdesac but we capture color overview as well as plates (LPR) at each location along with a PTZ at each location to track humans. We have very good street lighting to allow color but its still a tighhtrope. You need a shit ton of white light to run color at night.
Each location (1500ft apart) has its own NVR and router/internet connection as well as power obviously. Theyre in 20" NEMA plastic enclosures and have done fine in FL weather for 7 years.

Thats the easy part!

When you say AI enabled, what exactly are you thinking they'll do?

On the above system, if I know a day or a few days target, and I'm looking for a blue car, with 300-500 vehicle hits per day, it still may take me an hour or two to identify all possibles and narrow down to a time. If you tell me a blue car crashed at the entrance this morning, I can get you video clips in under 10 minutes

You're still going to have to pour through images/clips of "blue cars" or "humans" and knowing a time period or at least a day is going to be pretty helpful/

Might be a job for Blue Iris with slightly better AI options...and if no chinese cams, and higher levels of automation, you'll be looking at something like Axis and their high end systems and your budget wont get it

 

[MarkL51]

When you say AI enabled, what exactly are you thinking they'll do?

Thanks for your thoughts. Along the lines of what you said as far as AI search. If we have a narrowed time frame, it becomes much more of a possibility. I looked at the Turing AI search on a local vendors website, and there were similar options.

Someone that was originally making suggestions was pushing toward Dahua, but wanting to buy from overseas distributors off eBay. The possibilities of issues made us very wary. I contacted our regional Dahua representative, who said he would pass along our request to a couple of local distributors, and all I got was silence. I am not totally against things such as Dahua or Hikvision (my son and son-in-law worked for a security company and both have Hikvision systems at their homes), and even if the Chinese are spying on us there's not much they can learn.

We are a rural community, so night lighting is minimal. Our local Turing dealer (who has not been the easiest to deal with) said that Turing is supposed to be coming out with new LPR cameras that can "see" through headlight glare. I wasn't at the crime watch meeting when they decided against LPR systems so I don't know what the reasons were, but to my thinking if a LPR system could at minimum keep a log of plate numbers recognized, that could go a long way (thinking further of the possibility of allowing local residents to register their plates and we could then filter for non-resident vehicles). My son was very pro-Turing as far as 1) good systems, 2) great support, and 3) USA sourced.

 

[wittaj]

Many buy Dahua OEM from trusted vendor @EMPIRETECANDY on his Amazon site or website. You will pay way less than going thru a Dahua authorized rep.

 

[MarkL51]

Many buy Dahua OEM from trusted vendor @EMPIRETECANDY on his Amazon site or website. You will pay way less than going thru a Dahua authorized rep.

I looked at his listings, and nothing seems to match up with Dahua. Do they rebrand things?

 

[wittaj]

Yeah he was required recently to rename them. His are international models, which are usually better than what USA distributors sell.

See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links and the international model numbers) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

 

[bigredfish]

Thanks for your thoughts. Along the lines of what you said as far as AI search. If we have a narrowed time frame, it becomes much more of a possibility. I looked at the Turing AI search on a local vendors website, and there were similar options.

Someone that was originally making suggestions was pushing toward Dahua, but wanting to buy from overseas distributors off eBay. The possibilities of issues made us very wary. I contacted our regional Dahua representative, who said he would pass along our request to a couple of local distributors, and all I got was silence. I am not totally against things such as Dahua or Hikvision (my son and son-in-law worked for a security company and both have Hikvision systems at their homes), and even if the Chinese are spying on us there's not much they can learn.

We are a rural community, so night lighting is minimal. Our local Turing dealer (who has not been the easiest to deal with) said that Turing is supposed to be coming out with new LPR cameras that can "see" through headlight glare. I wasn't at the crime watch meeting when they decided against LPR systems so I don't know what the reasons were, but to my thinking if a LPR system could at minimum keep a log of plate numbers recognized, that could go a long way (thinking further of the possibility of allowing local residents to register their plates and we could then filter for non-resident vehicles). My son was very pro-Turing as far as 1) good systems, 2) great support, and 3) USA sourced.

Not heard of them but thats not surprising as I dont shop other equipment often

• The 90 second scan showed nothing spectacular that others like Dahua and HiK AI NVR's and cameras or BI do as far as AI
• Cloud based hmmm.. I assume you're looking at the NVR self-hosted? If cloud, ask them if you can stream/record # of cameras full main stream at say 8-10Mbps 24/7 as well as stream/record events/AI
• Cameras and NVRs look like same sensors and features we're used to with Dahua but different marketing names
• Do you know who makes their equipment? Some of those cameras have a very HiK look to them, I could be wrong

As far as the "see" through headlight glare" new feature, we've had that for years, its called HLC on Dahua gear.

 

[bigredfish]

Here's a rather low end version of the AI we already use. I say low end because my NVR is 2017 and while the camera is capable, the NVR lacks some bells and whistles as to attributes. This was just testing, I use this camera specifically for face shots on the street.

Face Detect / Non-Motor Vehicle, / MotorVehicle,/ Human

 

[bigredfish]

Not sure how many homes or entrances you’re dealing with, ours is only 41 ( my old neighborhood I still manage for them remotely)

couple of things we told homeowners

• don’t ask whose dog shit in your yard
• if it’s an event worth noting, we need notified in 24 hours. If it happened “ I think maybe two weeks ago I think midweek maybe at night ” then it wasn’t important enough for me to waste my time
• we need at least a good guess as to day or night, approx time would be great, and some tidbit of actionable detail. “Can you check and see if anything happened on the street last weekend” won’t get it

 

[bigredfish]

Here's how I set it up

Entrance (culdesac street)
4 cameras on their own NVR with Internet access on a 14 ft sq aluminum pole

Camera #1 PTZ camera which oversees entrance watching specifically for and tracking humans only, in this case any direction but you can define direction.
Or you could have it track vehicles or both
Here its showing its AI rules


See human and tracks once he trips the AI rule
View attachment HOAEntrP2P_ch1_20240702180953_20240702181018.mp4
















Camera #2 Overview and Spotter camera
Fixed camera provides 24/7 overview into the neighborhood, recording full time plus all activity defined in AI rules
Also acts as a spotter for the PTZ. When vehicle approaches Outbound, it tells PTZ to zoom and get a plate


PTZ camera reacts as told

View attachment HOAEntrP2P_ch1_20240702130851_20240702130906.mp4

















Camera #3= Fixed 24/7 Entrance Overview for when the PTZ is busy looking somewhere else!
This camera also uses AI rules to watch for and capture vehicles entering and leaving 24/7


Camera #4- Dedicated LPR cam
This camera has one job only. Get 99% reliable license plate shots on Incoming vehicles 24/7

 

[eggsan]

Sorry for asking, but what should be considered as the “best practice” behind the community security? It looks like as more neighbors got access to watch the premises, the better, including turning spot lights after someone crossing protected zones (smart AI detection), or being able to alert others during critical issues (pressing a panic button to activate sirens, strobes, etc.).

 

[bigredfish]

In Florida we like dogs and guns with nightvision

 

[eggsan]

I was thinking like a kind of informal watch security between neighbors, outside HOA administration. Will all participants have access to the live video, recorded material, centralized recorder (NVR), etc.

 

[bigredfish]

Good question.
For us no. Last thing I needed was 40+ homeowners accessing live view and calling me about cats/coyotes, etc.

We did/do have 4 special homeowners (2 on the HOA board and 2 others) with app view/playback access but no capability for making and changes to anything.

I personally had 2 neighbors/buddies I'd trust my life with and the 3 of us were pretty aware of what went on in the neighborhood. Most people cant be bothered. They'd rather not even know if something happened. Living in a bubble is popular nowadays.

 

[dudemaar]

Exactly same cameras here In Canada. I bet you $100 cdn Andy’s is newer version with better firmware and support.

 

[MarkL51]

A few things to reply to. Again, there are only two roads leading into our area, and we are thinking of 1 camera in each direction at each location (for a total of 4 cameras). We do not expect to be the solution to every issue, but are trying to add information to the area law enforcement (sheriff department) when we can. One of my thought is that if someone's home security catches something about a vehicle that was possibly involved in some activity in their area (which would provide starting information as to the vehicle and the time) we might be able to provide further information to help. Again, this is a rural community, so not a lot of lights along the roads (I pay $9.75/mo for to the electric utility for a street light outside of my home).

I really appreciate all of the helpful information!

 

[steve1225]

As I understand, You need cameras system which will detect / analyze / describe it look all humans & vehicles in specified areas (streets, gates etc) and allow to search by parameters (like human cloth color/age/sex/hair/hat/glasses type etc, car brand/color/plate).

This function is called Video MetaData and it creates thumbs / videos of all people / cars with meta tags describing them. Meta tags are created using AI technology. NVR interface allow to browse them and search by parameters / tags...


Last video shows many features, but You will find in different parts of video Metadata for humans, Metadata for vehicles, ANPR (car plates)...

Video MetaData is available on Dahua 5-series (WizMind-S 5xx2-S3) and 7-series (WizMind-X 7xx2-X).

WizMind S Series - Dahua International

WizMind S Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

WizMind X Series - Dahua International

WizMind X Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

5-series have more models (fixed/varifocal zoom, 3 chassis type, variant of color), is cheaper (200+ USD) but have lower AI performance / processor and don't do car plates (ANPR)..



7-series have less models (all varifocal, only bullet/dome no turrets), cost more (500+ USD) but this cam have 10+ different AI modes (Video Metadata is one of them) and can do car plates.. it can generate flow statistics for people / cars based on direction..



Video MetaData (all AI image analysis) is done totally on camera - there is no cloud processing - everything is local. If You have older cams without that function, NVR from Ultra line can do Video MetaData locally on NVR..

In 5-series cam there is another function call AcuPick - which allow to click on any person / vehicle in any video recordings and ask NVR to find all recordings for the-same looking people / cars from all cameras & recordings...


But AcuPick (older version) on 5-series didn't work in parallel to Video MetaData (You must choose one of them).

This is changing now - Dahua is in process of releasing AcuPick 2.0 - where functions of Video MetaData (describing people/cars by attributes and allow to search by them) are combined with AcuPick in one system...

in 5-series (where we have from a few weeks new firmware) AcuPick 2.0 creates a lot attributes for people, but for cars are only color for now. In next month there should be a new firmware for 7-series where all attributes for human and cars will be available.

AcuPick processing is done locally (no cloud) and divided is between cam and NVR.

Those functions works best where is one central NVR, which integrates all cameras.

It can be done with many NVR but if You want one central interface which works for all cameras, You need use Dahua server software called DSS Server - which in basic version (express) is free but for all AI features You must pay not cheap license for full version.

Materials about AcuPick 2.0:

https://material.dahuasecurity.com/uploads/soft/20240626/Leaflet_Dahua-AcuPick-2.0_V2.0_EN_202406.pdf

Screenshots from internal (for installers) Dahua presentation:

AcuPick 2.0 - NEW AI features for Dahua cams / NVRs (presentation)

Last firmware upgrade for WizMind-S (5xxx-S3) cameras showed that Dahua upgraded AcuPick functionality by adding detection of human/vehicle attributes plus separate detection of animals and some new features for IVS.. I found YouTube presentation by some Dahua rep in Kenya about AcuPick 2.0...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[steve1225]

I have been asked to seek out some recommendations for security cameras for our community crime watch organization. Initially, we want to cover traffic in both directions on the two roads that lead into the area (so 4 cameras total). We were first targeting cameras and systems with LPR (such as Turing)

turing.ai have nice AI search panel...
I don't known which solution they demonstrated to You...

But they mostly promote Cloud Edge solution - where cameras have basic AI detection for people/vehicles and 256GB memory card in-built. All video data are sent to Turing.AI data center over internet, where full AI analysis is done. You use nice panel and mobile apps, which looks and works very well.

But You must remember this require good internet connections to cams and the cams will use a lot of UPLOAD speed (so they require good true fiber internet, coax/hybrid/cable internet will not work well)...

In this solution You must pay recurring fee (Core.AI) for each camera to use them - this solution is a service. When You stop pay, You system (panel / web app) stop working (similar to Verkada, which offers very similar solution). In Edge line all cams have small (mostly 1/2.7") sensor - so at night, You will use IR and have black/white image..

They have also on-site solution with NVR, but ask about recurring prices for using their Core AI technology.

In both cases - hardware (cameras, NVR) are build by external camera manufacture (actually they use cameras from UniView - Chinese company - check Easy - Uniview - Leader of AIoT Solution and Prime - Uniview - Leader of AIoT Solution and compare to cameras on turing.ai website).

turing.ai is simply a service company which offers cctv video cloud / AI service for recurring fees.

 

[steve1225]

ps. ask turing.ai to do demonstration but on NIGHT footage.
Any cheap 50$ amazon camera can give You very good image at day..
Huge difference between cameras is in night situation - 95% cameras on market will give You blurred image for objects who walk/run/drive at NIGHT (low light situation)..

Check how people faces look from NIGHT footage?
Especially when they walk/run..

Is it possible to IDENTIFY them or they simply blurred or don't have enought details?
Are they color or black/white?

Is cars plates readable at night? Especially when they move fast..
Do You see drivers inside?

Are AI features (search functions by parameters) work well on people/cars from NIGHT footage?

 

[bigredfish]

In both cases - hardware (cameras, NVR) are build by external camera manufacture (actually they use cameras from UniView - Chinese company - check Easy - Uniview - Leader of AIoT Solution and Prime - Uniview - Leader of AIoT Solution and compare to cameras on turing.ai website).

I thought they looked familiar