Best way to guide a PTZ camera outdoors at long range

[Garrik]

I had a pretty depressing incident a few days ago in which neither of the "ai" software systems that I am evaluating were able to identify a face on a 5MP camera at about 25 feet distance (admittedly pretty wide view). Both vendors claim that the pixel density was just not high enough. I am not certain that I agree, but it is what it is - and that is leading me to believe that I am going to need to use PTZ cameras with pretty high levels of optical zoom if I want decent facial recognition in my outdoor use case (ranch setting, cameras typically 20-70 feet away from the area of interest, usually more like 70 and sometimes more like 100'+).

So the question then becomes how to guide the tracking on the PTZ cameras. As I see it, the options are:

• Native autotracking on the camera (which uses either PIR or the cameras own optical field of view)
• Something like Axis Perimeter Defender PTZ Autotracking, which uses a second optical camera to guide the PTZ camera
• A thermal camera to guide the PTZ one
• Radar to guide the PTZ

First question is, did I miss any options? Obviously I am glossing over the matter of the interface between the guider and the PTZ.

Second question is, what are the tradeoffs among these various options, other than cost? I think I have a pretty good idea, but would love to hear any real world experiences.

Third question is, does anyone have a particular brand of tech to suggest that I use? My current bias is towards Axis, I have been very impressed by their high end equipment (have one of their license place cameras, it is excellent).

Thanks much!

 

[bigredfish]

The first two together

Many of us have PTZs which autotrack, but are also directed to specific choke points by another fixed camera. We call them spotter cams in that they have their own FOV but double as spotters for the PTZ. Don;t know why Axis has to use so many fancy terms for what is standard behavior

There are also dual lens PTZs with both a wide angle panoramic view that spots for the PTZ lens

 

[wittaj]

You will probably need more cameras or revise the goals. One camera cannot be the be all/see all. The camera to IDENTIFY at 15 feet is a different camera than one to IDENTIFY at 70 feet.

There is not a 5MP camera on the ideal/MP sensor, so that coupled with probably unrealistic expectations has resulted in the issues you have. What brand/model and distance?

PTZs are a compliment to an existing system and not replacements for fixed cameras.

So with only PTZs and no additional fixed cameras - what happens when 2 or more people come up to your house - the PTZ is only catching and tracking one of them, not all of them.

PTZs are not perfect and can lose tracking. Then you miss the person.

What happens when the PTZ is looking left and a perp comes from the right?

That is why PTZs are not a replacement for fixed cameras - they are a compliment to an existing system.

If you rely on a PTZ only it will miss many instances, especially when it is off tracking something else.

You are much better off using fixed cams as spotter cams to point the PTZ to where the action is and then let the autotracking take over from there.

See this thread on how a PTZ compliments a fixed camera system.


See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value/best bang for the buck in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection


Axis is a great brand and if you want to spend the money, go for it.

@smiticans is our resident Axis expert and has shown great quality with them and can probably give you a better lead on the proper models. He sums it up best in this post (excerpt copied below):

"The price of Axis cameras aren't just for the image quality. You're also paying for 10 years of firmware updates to stay up to date with features and cybersecurity. They meet NDAA, TAA, FIPS 140-2 or 3 compliance, support zero trust networking and have support for signed video (adds cryptographic signatures to recorded video to verify the video is authentic and hasn't been tampered with). They also have additional cybersecurity features such as Edge Vault etc. They support integration to access control systems, primeter detection systems that include radar units, thermal imaging sensors, speakers, sirens/strobes and relay units. They support MQTT, VAPIX commands, ACAP (Axis Camera Application Platform) where apps can be developed and run directly on the camera itself. The higher end ones also have DLPU (Deep Learning Processing Units) for analytics. The Zipstream technology and compression allow these cameras to use less bitrate while maintaining image quality. My Axis cameras use about half of the storage/bitrate when compared to my Dahua cameras without sacrificing image quality.

If you're trying to keep your install on a lower budget, Dahua is the way to go. If you don't care about budget, and are interested in the Axis features I listed above, it might make more sense for you to use Axis.

Just keep in mind, this forum leans heavily towards BI and Dahua cameras. You will get a lot of support here if you purchase Dahua cameras. You won't get lot of support if you purchase Axis cameras."

 

[smiticans]

I agree with @wittaj, you're probably going to need more cameras than you think.

One of the features of pairing an Axis PTZ with a radar unit is the PTZ camera does not have to see the person/vehicle to trigger the PTZ to start auto tracking. It can also track more than one person at a time, but the camera will zoom out so you'll lose details. I don't have a PTZ with radar yet (hopefully within the next month) so I can't comment on real world performance. Just keep in mind the maximum distance for human detection with the D2110-VE radar is 200 feet and for vehicles up to 280 feet.

If you're interested in Axis cameras, I would use their site designer. You can grab an image of the property from Google maps and place cameras on the map and it'll show the DORI distance and FOV. AXIS Site Designer

Without know any of the specifics of the area you're trying to protect, it'll be hard for anyone on this forum to make any specific recommendations.