Camera Recommendations/Installation questions

[IAH343]

Hi

Had a burglary a few weeks ago, looking to get the place secured with some cameras but dont want to spend too much. Family are insistent on a Ring floodlight for the two way talk and the floodlight so am trying to compromise. Am a complete noob however I've read into it somewhat and will probably be going with the following config.

2x Reolink RLC 811A w/ Reolink NVR
Unifi USG
Unifi 8 Port PoE Switch connected to the USG
TP Link PoE Switch for connecting the cameras, connected to the Unifi switch
Unifi Cloud Key for the software


Will this config work? Can it be made simpler (I notice PoE on the Reolink NVR)? Seems a little expensive compared to two Ring floodlights, any other cheaper options out there?


Also another thing, blocking internet access on the IP cameras. How do you know what VLAN ID and subnet to use?

With accessing the cameras through an app, is there a decent app for iOS or is it just tinycam for android thats good? Would you need to always connect via VPN if you were to use iOS?


Is there an easier/cheaper way to do all this? £280 total for two Ring floodlights as opposed to £880 for all that gear, as well as pro installation if needed..


Regards

IAH

 

[wittaj]

Ring and Reolink will only let you know what time it happened. You will spend $800 bucks and the wife will say that is all we can tell....

What Reolink makes up in for static image quality (and the static image is what almost every NOOB gets fascinated with), they lack when it comes to motion at night...

What you mean a missing hand isn't normal LOL

How about missing everything but the head and upper torso

The invisible man, where can he be. Thank goodness he is carrying around a reflective plate to see where he is LOL (hint - the person is literally in the middle of the image at the end of the fence)

I've seen better images on an episode of ghost hunters

And of course, this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture.... Could this provide anything useful for the police other than the date and time something happened? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you


Take a look at these two threads and learn some more and then come back with my questions...

This thread is the unofficial Reolink thread showing how poorly they perform at night:

Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"

Executive Summary: DO NOT be a sheep. Ask what a reviewer can be missing, ask if a reviewer is using hype words to sell the cheapest product. Test your cameras and kits right away. Just do a bench test. Test real world conditions. Test moving suspects. Test at night, test at day. Use a test rig...

ipcamtalk.com

This thread is the unofficial thread showing what you get from Consumer Grade cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, etc. (look at post #40 for a good comparison between a good camera and a Ring floodlight camera both costing about the same price):

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.

Love these posts on Nextdoor type apps LOL. This thread will be used for members to post the poor quality consumer grade type camera images that we see people post to the Nextdoor type apps. Can anyone make out this person that went thru their cars LOL.... And this thread is where members...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[samplenhold]

How much did the burglary cost you? In money? How much did it cost you in inconvenience? How much did it cost you in personal feelings of safety?

When my home was burglarized it drove me to put in place an alarm system. Only then did my wife feel safe again.

If you do not have an alarm then get one before you consider cams.

 

[samplenhold]

Read the WIKI here before you spend any money on cams.

 

[IAH343]

Ring and Reolink will only let you know what time it happened. You will spend $800 bucks and the wife will say that is all we can tell....

What Reolink makes up in for static image quality (and the static image is what almost every NOOB gets fascinated with), they lack when it comes to motion at night...

What you mean a missing hand isn't normal LOL

How about missing everything but the head and upper torso

The invisible man, where can he be. Thank goodness he is carrying around a reflective plate to see where he is LOL (hint - the person is literally in the middle of the image at the end of the fence)

I've seen better images on an episode of ghost hunters

And of course, this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture.... Could this provide anything useful for the police other than the date and time something happened? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you


Take a look at these two threads and learn some more and then come back with my questions...

This thread is the unofficial Reolink thread showing how poorly they perform at night:

Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"

Executive Summary: DO NOT be a sheep. Ask what a reviewer can be missing, ask if a reviewer is using hype words to sell the cheapest product. Test your cameras and kits right away. Just do a bench test. Test real world conditions. Test moving suspects. Test at night, test at day. Use a test rig...

ipcamtalk.com

This thread is the unofficial thread showing what you get from Consumer Grade cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, etc. (look at post #40 for a good comparison between a good camera and a Ring floodlight camera both costing about the same price):

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.

Love these posts on Nextdoor type apps LOL. This thread will be used for members to post the poor quality consumer grade type camera images that we see people post to the Nextdoor type apps. Can anyone make out this person that went thru their cars LOL.... And this thread is where members...

ipcamtalk.com

Wow ok...


Could the comparison between that and the Ring floodlight be due to the camera having better lighting in the first photo? What CCTV brands are good then?

 

[IAH343]

How much did the burglary cost you? In money? How much did it cost you in inconvenience? How much did it cost you in personal feelings of safety?

When my home was burglarized it drove me to put in place an alarm system. Only then did my wife feel safe again.

If you do not have an alarm then get one before you consider cams.

Cost around 8k I believe, and won't be getting that much payout from insurance.

Alarm we do have, unfortunately electric work was being done and the alarm kept going off when set, had to leave it off and what do you know, we have a break in at that time.

 

[IAH343]

Read the WIKI here before you spend any money on cams.

Sure, I'm mainly looking for advice on the config. Seems a little daunting to block the internet and VLAN etc.

 

[IAH343]

I've had a quick read over the wiki installation instructions - doesn't highlight blocking the internet? If I wire the cameras thru the NVR I wont be able to put them on their separate VLAN and block the internet access, will i?

 

[wittaj]

They both have comparable lighting in that post #40 that @samplenhold provided.

Many here believe that Hikvision and Dahua provide the best bang for the buck.

You see plenty of examples here and I am sure @sebastiantombs will chime in with his links for reviews of the commonly used cameras that members here use.

@EMPIRETECANDY is a trusted vendor that many of us use and he provides service to the UK as well. Here is is Amazon and Aliexpress store.

Blocking the internet is much easier than you think. Most here run free OpenVPN to VPN back into your system. This is different than a paid VPN that hides your IP for porn and illegal streaming.

It is in these wiki:

How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!)

Many camera networks are unsecure, even those installed by professionals. This guide gives basic instruction in how to secure a camera network from the most common types of attacks. Perhaps the most important rule of securing a computer network is to not forward ports to unsecure services...

ipcamtalk.com

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[IAH343]

They both have comparable lighting in that post #40 that @samplenhold provided.

Many here believe that Hikvision and Dahua provide the best bang for the buck.

You see plenty of examples here and I am sure @sebastiantombs will chime in with his links for reviews of the commonly used cameras that members here use.

@EMPIRETECANDY is a trusted vendor that many of us use and he provides service to the UK as well. Here is is Amazon and Aliexpress store.

Blocking the internet is much easier than you think. Most here run free OpenVPN to VPN back into your system. This is different than a paid VPN that hides your IP for porn and illegal streaming.

It is in these wiki:

How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!)

Many camera networks are unsecure, even those installed by professionals. This guide gives basic instruction in how to secure a camera network from the most common types of attacks. Perhaps the most important rule of securing a computer network is to not forward ports to unsecure services...

ipcamtalk.com

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...

ipcamtalk.com

Cool, I'll try looking for a camera with two way audio and a floodlight from them.

It's just the networking side of things that confuses me. I've come across a big guide about how to do it but it uses Unifi equipment which is expensive. i still need a switch to do VLAN, no?


also, how do you view the footage on ios?

 

[wittaj]

Most here find that cameras with floodlights are gimmicky and ends up causing problems with image exposure. But the consumer grade companies sell a lot of it because people think a two-in-one is better than two separate.

Further, motion activated lights are bad for surveillance cameras.. What happens is then the camera is momentarily blinded and you lose the ideal capture when the lights kick on and the camera adjusts from basically no light to a lot of light.

Either keep the lights on all night or not at all to ensure the best chance of capture.

Here is usually what happens when a motion activated floodlight comes on - it just about completely blinds the camera right at the moment of optimal opportunity to get the picture. There are 3 deer in this picture and two of them are lost in the blinded white while the camera's exposure adjusts to the rapid change in available light:

Some cameras can take 20 seconds to adjust and the perp would be long gone

 

[wittaj]

Take a look at this thread I created that demonstrates the importance of getting the correct camera for the area to be covered.

Keep in mind two-way talk cameras have a purpose, but they are not like a telephone conversation and are more like walkie-talkie and there will be a lag depending on the speed of your system - could be a 2-4 second delay.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

Cost around 8k I believe, and won't be getting that much payout from insurance.

Alarm we do have, unfortunately electric work was being done and the alarm kept going off when set, had to leave it off and what do you know, we have a break in at that time.

Could it have been an inside job by one of the employees doing the electric work?

 

[IAH343]

Most here find that cameras with floodlights are gimmicky and ends up causing problems with image exposure. But the consumer grade companies sell a lot of it because people think a two-in-one is better than two separate.

Further, motion activated lights are bad for surveillance cameras.. What happens is then the camera is momentarily blinded and you lose the ideal capture when the lights kick on and the camera adjusts from basically no light to a lot of light.

Either keep the lights on all night or not at all to ensure the best chance of capture.

Here is usually what happens when a motion activated floodlight comes on - it just about completely blinds the camera right at the moment of optimal opportunity to get the picture. There are 3 deer in this picture and two of them are lost in the blinded white while the camera's exposure adjusts to the rapid change in available light:

Some cameras can take 20 seconds to adjust and the perp would be long gone

Wow ok, I didn't realize it affects the cameras that much. investing in a proper floodlight that's on all the time may be the best bet.

Just a few things to iron out then

Do I need a PoE switch to be able to block the internet access/VLAN? Idk if i need a separate router as well, Unifi seems good but its so expensive.

 

[wittaj]

It's just the networking side of things that confuses me. I've come across a big guide about how to do it but it uses Unifi equipment which is expensive. i still need a switch to do VLAN, no?

also, how do you view the footage on ios?

Take it one step at a time. Yes Unifi equipment is expensive, but it isn't the only solution. VLANs and managed switches are not needed unless you have a need to do that.

Well to muddy it even further, I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands and then be able to get the right camera for the right location.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

Personally I have found the feed from BI to use a lot less "internet" than trying to stream the NVR. YMMV.

But whether you go with an NVR or Blue Iris, there will be a respective app for you to see your system.

 

[IAH343]

Take a look at this thread I created that demonstrates the importance of getting the correct camera for the area to be covered.

Keep in mind two-way talk cameras have a purpose, but they are not like a telephone conversation and are more like walkie-talkie and there will be a lag depending on the speed of your system - could be a 2-4 second delay.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

Could it have been an inside job by one of the employees doing the electric work?

Yeah I realize there is delay. With some cameras i've been seeing abhorrent audio quality

Inside job is unlikely.

 

[IAH343]

I have an existing computer and monitor.... blue iris may be worth looking into

 

[wittaj]

In that case, you simply add a second ethernet port on it (less than $20) and then you can completely isolate the cameras from the internet by having all of the cameras connect to one NIC and the internet to the other NIC.

It is called a dual NIC system and is a quick, simple, and easy way to keep cameras off the internet. Much simpler than VLANs.

Dual NIC setup on your Blue Iris Machine

In making your system more secure this is a great option to eliminate your cameras calling home / connecting to the internet This is a great place to start to setup a bit more secure network and learn more about IP/Subnets etc. before adding dual NICs: Router Security - Subnets and IP addresses...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[samplenhold]

So you lost 8k but are balking at spending more than 800?

The WIKI can give you a lot of info on camera selection. @wittaj has given you lots of links to other threads that you really should read through about securing the network etc.

It is hard to respond to being violated in a less than quick fashion. We want to quickly solve the issue. Sometimes that causes us to make rash decisions.

Think about where the intrusion took place. What video would have been important to have? Where would you need to have cams mounted to get that video? What focal length lens would you have needed? You may find it difficult to answer those questions without any prior security cam experience. It might help to use a smartphone camera or DSLR camera to take some pictures of where the intrusion took place and shots of where you think cams should be placed and post them here for people to help give you direction.

 

[wittaj]

^+1 !!!!

We had a door checker come thru and one of my neighbors lost $800 worth of stuff out of his truck one night.

He was so upset over that he took the next day off and went and bought Arlos in an attempt to quickly solve the issue.

About 6 months later, his truck was hit again and his Arlos provided nothing useful for the police. They even failed to trigger to let them know what time.

In disgust, despite my cameras getting him his stuff back in both instances and knowing better cameras are available, he then replaced the Arlos with Reolinks.

The Reolinks missed the most recent attempt...he gets lots of Casper ghosts though LOL.