Critique LPR Design Please

[samplenhold]

Been considering adding LPR to my system. Currently running BI with Dahua cameras. I live on a corner and thinking of building a box to house two HFW5241E-Z12E cameras. The design models from the IPVM Camera Calculator are below. Camera 1 would be facing SE and could capture front plates coming and rear plates going along that road. It would also capture rear plates that took a right from the road as it passed to the SW. This camera would be about 80 feet from the plates.

Camera 2 would be facing NE and could capture front plates coming from the NE headed SW or turning onto the road headed NW. It could also capture rear plates headed NE. This camera would be about 90 feet from the plates. Note that there are 4 street lights (marked in the Camera 1 model) along these streets.

What are people's experience with the IPVM Camera Calculator? Do your captures look anything like the expected plate captures in the calculator? Or are these estimates useless?



Below is where I was thinking of placing a box with the two cameras in it. This would be in the garden between the tree and the monkey grass. The cameras would probably be 3 feet off the ground. The most difficult part of this is trying to get the cables from my attic to the garden.



To get an idea of what I could expect for coverage and plate angles, I took some photos from behind the tree using an iPad that I have had since 2012 (5MP camera) I have 4 views below. I have included a digital zoom (screen capture) of the plate for each view to give an idea of the angle/coverage. I think I can get good plate captures during the day, but am concerned about night captures.



Would the tree to the right and/or the Jeep in the driveway give IR reflections that may make night time captures poor?



For night time captures from this view, will the tree and light pole be an issue with IR reflections? Will the white light from the street lights make night captures poor?



I've read a lot about night time focus issues and it has gotten me wondering about depth of field. Would I have enough depth of field to get in-focus captures at the different distances along these streets?

Also, do folks record 24/7 or just on motion for their LPR cameras?

Any insight and additional information/thoughts you folks can give me here would be great. My plan would be to get one HFW5241E-Z12E and do a temporary set up, prior to building a box and running cables, to get proof of concept. That way if it proves a no go, I only have one camera that is wasted.

 

[bigredfish]

Generally speaking I record 24/7 AND Motion (IVS) both.

Yeah IR reflection could be a problem, but remember your focus will be tight on the plate area so you'll probably avoid much of the bounce back. The close tree next to the cameras may be a concern. I'd probably mount higher (6ft or so) on the tree itself..... but you'll probably be ok. test before you permanant mount.

At 80-90 ft with the 5241-Z12 you should be fine with distance.

Here's a few random samples of mine with the older 5231Z-12 at 120 and 100ft respectively.

 

[coney27]

As @bigredfish said I would probably use one of your trees as a mounting location.

I use Hikvision's 2 MP DeepinView Ultra-Low Light Outdoor LPR Bullet Camera and I love it. It automatically reads and logs the plates for easy searching and reviewing

 

[bigredfish]

Thats a great camera as are the Dahua 7442 Ultra AI models, though pricier. These have LPR reading capabilities built-in to record and catalog.

For me I just need to be able to visually ID a plate now and then and with an Overview camera next to each 5231-Z12 I have the ability to easily locate an event and match the larger overview scene (car, color, time, etc) with the plate camera. Depends on your expected volume/usage as to which type is of greater practical value.

 

[samplenhold]

Thanks bigredfish.

I use Hikvision's 2 MP DeepinView Ultra-Low Light Outdoor LPR Bullet Camera and I love it. It automatically reads and logs the plates for easy searching and reviewing

Where does one purchase that camera? I know I can get the Dahuas from Andy, and have purchased quite a few.

 

[bigredfish]

I think Andy can get HiK also?
I think you’l be jumping to the $600-$1000 range on that or the Dahua equivalent with built in ANPR capabilities....

 

[coney27]

Thanks bigredfish.


Where does one purchase that camera? I know I can get the Dahuas from Andy, and have purchased quite a few.

I have 3 extra LPRs coming from my supplier that should be arriving tomorrow. And unfortunately Andy only deals with ColorVu right now and not many other Hikvisions.

 

[samplenhold]

I think you’l be jumping to the $600-$1000 range on that or the Dahua equivalent with built in ANPR capabilities....

That's way more than I want to spend!

 

[bigredfish]

Yeah me too for the dozen or two vehicles of interest on our little street a year.

I went with a 5231 (5241) Z12 and a 5442 for Overview beside it and I think I have under $400 in the two together...

 

[galapagos7]

Generally speaking I record 24/7 AND Motion (IVS) both.

Yeah IR reflection could be a problem, but remember your focus will be tight on the plate area so you'll probably avoid much of the bounce back. The close tree next to the cameras may be a concern. I'd probably mount higher (6ft or so) on the tree itself..... but you'll probably be ok. test before you permanant mount.

At 80-90 ft with the 5241-Z12 you should be fine with distance.

Here's a few random samples of mine with the older 5231Z-12 at 120 and 100ft respectively.

View attachment 56593 View attachment 56594 View attachment 56595

Which camera do you have?


I am looking for suggestions for LPR camera under $300 range

 

[bigredfish]

That’s. 5231Z-12. I think the newer 5241ZE-12 version is a tiny bit better

 

[samplenhold]

Well I ordered one HFW5241E-Z12E from Andy yesterday.

My plan is to temporarily position it behind the tree and test it out as a Proof of Concept. My big fear is that the angles will be too steep for the ALPR software to give good plate numbers.

The other problem might be getting cable to the mounting area. I still have not fully investigated how to run cable from the attic to the garden. I have a plan in mind, but need to drill some access holes to run a bore camera inside to see if it is possible.

If this does not work out, I will have a camera for sale!

 

[samplenhold]

Yesterday I received the one HFW5241E-Z12E camera that I ordered from @EMPIRETECANDY last Tuesday (6 total days from email to Andy to delivered in TX!). Thanks Andy for such quick turnaround!

Did some location tests this afternoon (see photos). I just placed the camera on a box behind the tree. As I live on a corner, I am trying to get plates from cars turning on the corner and also driving past the house. I think I can get reasonable plate captures during the day, but have no idea if the ALPR software will be able to detect these. What do you think? The photos are BI sanpshots from the paused videos.



The ones with the tree in the view are looking at the corner. All settings are the default except for Zoom=840 and set the Exposure to Day/Outdoor Shutter Priority 1/500 3D NR on at 50.
The ones with the street light pole in the view are looking down the street away from the corner. All settings are the default except for Zoom=1000 and set the Exposure to Day/Outdoor Shutter Priority 1/500 3D NR on at 50.

I really need feedback on if you think ALPR will get captures.

This is basically a proof of concept trial. If you all think the ALPR would capture plates well, I will purchase it and spend the time trying to get it running. I have no idea how that all works.

I did try and get some night captures but I ran out of time trying to get the setting right. Came out basically a dark blur.

 

[djernie]

Yesterday I received the one HFW5241E-Z12E camera that I ordered from @EMPIRETECANDY last Tuesday (6 total days from email to Andy to delivered in TX!). Thanks Andy for such quick turnaround!

Did some location tests this afternoon (see photos). I just placed the camera on a box behind the tree. As I live on a corner, I am trying to get plates from cars turning on the corner and also driving past the house. I think I can get reasonable plate captures during the day, but have no idea if the ALPR software will be able to detect these. What do you think? The photos are BI sanpshots from the paused videos.

View attachment 57594View attachment 57595View attachment 57596View attachment 57597View attachment 57598View attachment 57599

The ones with the tree in the view are looking at the corner. All settings are the default except for Zoom=840 and set the Exposure to Day/Outdoor Shutter Priority 1/500 3D NR on at 50.
The ones with the street light pole in the view are looking down the street away from the corner. All settings are the default except for Zoom=1000 and set the Exposure to Day/Outdoor Shutter Priority 1/500 3D NR on at 50.

I really need feedback on if you think ALPR will get captures.

This is basically a proof of concept trial. If you all think the ALPR would capture plates well, I will purchase it and spend the time trying to get it running. I have no idea how that all works.

I did try and get some night captures but I ran out of time trying to get the setting right. Came out basically a dark blur.

At night is a little harder to get it dialed in, but if you could get a friend or someone to park their car in the place you want to capture it will be easier to get it dialed in for night capture. The day captures look good to me.

 

[wittaj]

@samplenhold - Those will be easily read by ALPR. They are great shots.

Did you change night vision to manual shutter say 1/1000 or 1/2000?

It will also go to B/W and with a shutter speed that fast, the camera has nothing to focus on, so that could be the blur if you have manual shutter set to above.

If that is the case, you need to kick it to B/W say 45 minutes or so before sunset so there is enough light to focus on.

Or run it B/W full time since this is for plate capture.

 

[pozzello]

for night captures, you're going to have an issue with the trees and poles in the view, which will reflect IR coming from the cam's location.
a workaround would be to put your IR on the far side of the tree, but if you could put IR there, you might as well put the cam(s) there...

If you're running ethernet out into the yard anyways, how about going all the way to the corner, where you could get closer unobstructed views in all directions...?

also, your IPVM mockups show 50-60PPI. I'd shoot for 100 or more...

 

[samplenhold]

@wittaj I really did not work the night capture hard. Just wanted to give it a try. I don't remember the shutter speed. I did make it faster than the 1/500 of the daytime captures. Set it to B/W, dialed the near IR to zero and upped the far IR to 70. The scene was pretty dark. I am sure that it was not focused correctly.

how about going all the way to the corner

I am not willing to mount cameras for LPR that are very obvious. There is no way to hide them in that location, at least nothing that I am willing to do. Right now it is my plan to build a box and place it behind the tree in the garden. It would match the wood of the shutters on the house. Most folks that spy it from the street would probably think it is an irrigation box.

IPVM mockups show 50-60PPI

Yeah, I was worried about that in the initial plan. But the IPVM estimate does not seem to be very accurate.

 

[wittaj]

@samplenhold - at night time your image will be completely black and then when a car goes by all you see are the headlights or tail lights and license plate, which is why you need to either run B/W full time or kick it into B/W 45 minutes or so before sunset.

I believe your plate images are clear enough and large enough at your location that you should be fine both day and night.

 

[bigredfish]

Agree with @wittaj , only concern at night would be IR reflection from that tree..

 

[samplenhold]

Follow up:
I purchased the second HFW5241E-Z12E camera and now having trouble deciding exactly how to mount these in the garden.

My first idea was to build a box to hide them in. Paint it to match the brown accent wood of the house. It would blend in quite nicely in the garden behind the tree. Figured four 2x2 pressure treated for uprights from the soil, putting them in the ground like fence posts. Building a box around them and placing both cameras inside. Cut a hole on each end and have them peeking out. Not sure how to secure them once I get them pointed just right.

Then I got to thinking, what about just mounting them on a pole behind the tree? They are not that big, maybe they would not stick out too much. Maybe paint them brown or camo? So I looked into the pole mount that is listed in the camera's datasheet pdf, the PFA152-E. But then I do not have a way to protect the connections. So I guess that would be accomplished by using a PFA121 attached to the PFA152-E? But the datasheet says nothing about the PFA121. The measurements for the holes seem to match up. But how do you secure them so they will not get stolen? They are held to the pole with a simple hose clamp?

So how do you folks mount your HFW5241E-Z12E cameras? Do you have them in a box, on a pole, or on a building? How are you doing this?