Dahua Selection Assistance

[ziptie]

Hello guys,

I am tying to get a way from a Nest camera system because the picture quality is just a low bitrate mess. I am very naive when it comes to security cameras, and what little I have learned is there are a lot of "gotchas" on building systems, and its hard to cut through the fluff of features to discover what is important or not.

I am looking for a PoE system with "exceptional" picture quality, with a budget preferably under 200 per camera. I plan to use Blue Iris as my NVR. The cameras will be placed above the garage over looking the front door and yard, as well as another in the backyard.

I am currently looking at the N45EF63 camera because its relatively low resolution with large sensor and aperture make it seem like it would be a good performer, especially in lowlight. But, while I would like some AI features, this one seems to have far more than I would need. I just want to be able to tell if it is a person or a cloud.

*Is there anything less expensive with similar IQ?
*Will the AI features even integrate with Blue Iris or is it a one or the other type of thing?
*Will these stream full res to Blue Iris?
*What would you recommend with WiFi for areas I cannot get a cable to?

 

[wittaj]

Welcome!

There isn't anything less expensive with similar IQ and picture quality. Reolinks are cheaper with IQ, but do a search here and found out how bad night video with motion is.

Yes, you can tell BI to pull the ONVIF AI triggers into BI.

Yes they stream full stream - we all wouldn't be here using BI if the video quality was poor!

Would not recommend wifi - the problem will be wifi is problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to use it through a wifi router. Someone tested this once and after 4 cameras, the wifi was unusable...and at the distance you may be and thru a building, if you do not have full bars, you will have trouble. Try a speed test from your mobile device at the proposed camera location and see what speed you get.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch before it freezes. Now do the same with a wifi camera and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

You will want to know if you can IDENTIFY who the person is. Why get a system with as you say "exceptional" picture quality if it is not set up to IDENTIFY? If not, you would just stay with your crappy Nest system. You are proposing them too high to identify someone.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP...this is even more critical with a PTZ that will be PTZing across a wide range of differing light conditions at night. 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

Also, keep in mind there is a well kept secret that with a powerline adapter you can run internet over your electric wires....so a simple punch out from an outlet on the 1st floor to the outside can result in a lower camera location....Is it as good as an ethernet wire, no, but they do work and I have had one going for years now for a hard to wire location.

Next you need to worry about getting the right camera for the right location.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8mm lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most).

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that is popular, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back. Reolinks are even worse at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him. And my neighbor with his 4K Costco kit is as well LOL.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

I encourage you reach out to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY as he has an Amazon site to get your gear.

The best advice we give is purchase one varifocal camera and test it at each location you want to install a camera and confirm the lens you need and do not install higher than 7-8 feet unless it is for an overview camera - otherwise you get top of heads and hoodies.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Your don't mention the source/manufacturer of the camera model. I got three different cameras back on a Google search and one, a Dahua 4MPbullet, would a good choice. For areas you can't get cable to a dedicated encrypted RF link is the best way to go. WiFi is not designed for the constant high bit rate that an IP camera produces. Using WiFi for surveillance cameras is not the same as streaming a Netflix video. Streaming a video from Netflix allows for buffering while video surveillance does not. Even a WiFi camera has a wire to supply power so if there are multiple cameras they can be aggregated with a switch and the switch attached to the dedicated RF link like a Ubuiquity Nano Station Loco.

Start out by looking in the WiKi in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a ton of very useful information in there and it needs to be viewed on a computer, not a phone or tablet. The Cliff Notes will be of particular interest although the camera models listed there are a generation old at this point. The best way to determine what kind of camera you need in each location and where each location should really be is to buy one varifocal camera first and set up a test stand for it that can be easily moved around. Test using that, viewing using the web interface of the camera, during the day and at night. Have someone walk around behaving like a miscreant and see if you can identify them. There is also information for choosing hardware and securing the system along with a whole bunch of other good stuff.

Don't chase megapixels unless you have a really BIG budget. Chase sensor size and bigger is better. To confuse you more sensor sizes are listed in fractions so do the basic math to be sure, 1/2.8 is bigger than 1/2.7 or 1/3. General rule of thumb is that a 4MP camera will easily outperform an 8MP camera when they both have the same sensor size. Reason being that there are twice as many pixels in the 8MP versus the 4MP. This results in only half the available light getting to each pixel in an 8MP that a pixel in the 4MP "sees".

A dedicated PC doesn't need to be either expensive to purchase or to run. A used business class machine can be had from eBay and various other sources. The advances made in Blue Iris make it easily possible to run a fairly large system on relatively inexpensive hardware which also makes power consumption low, as in under 50 watts in many cases. The biggest expenses turn out to be hard drives for storing video and a PoE switch to power the cameras and, of course, the cameras themselves.

The three basic rules of video surveillance cameras-

Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Any camera can be made to "see" color at night if the exposure time is long enough, as in half a second or longer. Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Avoid Reolink, Foscam, SV3C, Nest, and all the other consumer grade cameras. They all struggle mightily at night and never get anything useful on video. Here's a link to a whole thread debunking Reolink in particular.

Compiled by mat200 -

Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"

Executive Summary: DO NOT be a sheep. Ask what a reviewer can be missing, ask if a reviewer is using hype words to sell the cheapest product. Test your cameras and kits right away. Just do a bench test. Test real world conditions. Test moving suspects. Test at night, test at day. Use a test rig...

ipcamtalk.com

Avoid WiFi cameras, even doorbell cameras. WiFi is not designed for the constant, 24/7, load of video that a surveillance camera produces. At best, with two cameras on WiFi, they will still experience dropouts multiple times daily. Murphy's Law says that will happen at the worst possible moment.

Lens size, focal length, is another critical factor. Many people like the wide, sweeping, views of a 2.8mm lens but be aware that identification is problematic with a lens that wide. Watch this video to learn how to analyze each location for appropriate lens size and keep in mind that it may take two cameras to provide the coverage you need or desire. Another factor that effects view angles is the sensor size. Typically larger sensors will have a larger field of view in any given lens size.

The 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill". They are 4MP and capable of color with some ambient light at night. The 2231 series is a less expensive alternative in 2MP and does not have audio capabilities, no built in microphone, but is easier on the budget. The 3241T-ZAS has similar spcs as the 2231 and has audio. There are also cameras available from the IPCT Store right here on the forum and from Nelly's Security who has a thread in the vendors section.

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua)

IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal from @EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret Varifocal Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $200.00...

ipcamtalk.com

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

All, thanks to Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY ) we have a new 4MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This camera is using the OEM model number of IPC-B5442-ZE which is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW5442-ZE for reference. The IPC-B...

ipcamtalk.com

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $160 Link to camera...

ipcamtalk.com

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Andy's Email: kingsecurity2014...

ipcamtalk.com

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

Review: OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Pro AI Starlight Full-color Fixed Bullet

Many thanks once again to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY we have for testing the OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Starlight+ Full Color bullet. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a fixed 3.6mm bullet (Pro AI) series with the 1/1.8” sensor. It has no built in...

ipcamtalk.com

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal

Again courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY EmpireTech Andy we have a new cam to look over. Its a new model in Dahua's new Lite H265 Series of cam's. Available for purchase here: Aliexpress.com - Online Shopping for Electronics, Fashion, Home & Garden, Toys & Sports, Automobiles and more Price is approx...

ipcamtalk.com

3241T-ZAS Review

Review-OEM IPC-T3241-ZAS 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal

IPC-T3241-ZAS from EMPIRETECANDY 2MP WDR Turret Varifocal AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Purchase in the IPCT Store Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price...

ipcamtalk.com

Less expensive models -

Budget Dahua Cams or china alternatives under $100?

Well here we go. I dont see anywhere more approriate to discuss this. Ive been messing around with putting together a cctv system for close to 3 years now. Ive bought everything i needed and also bought 2 cheap cams from a third party seller on walmart. Those cams cost me a grand total of $50...

ipcamtalk.com

VPN Information Thread

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...

ipcamtalk.com

Ubiquity Nano Station Loco M5

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti Nanostation LOCO M5 Outdoor MIMO 11n 5GHz. locoM5 (2 pack): Computers & Accessories

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti Nanostation LOCO M5 Outdoor MIMO 11n 5GHz. locoM5 (2 pack): Computers & Accessories

www.amazon.com

 

[The Automation Guy]

The Dahua 5442 series are probably the best "all around" option right now. They are a 4mp camera with a 1/1.8" Sony starvis sensor which will provide excellent low/no light performance (and daytime images too, but it's the low/no light performance that separates the great cameras from the rest). They make models with fixed lenses (2.8mm, 3.6mm and 6mm) as well as variable lenses (2.7-12mm and 8-32mm). The fixed lenses are under $200 while the variable lens models will be slightly over $200 usually. There are plenty of threads on this forum regarding each camera.

 

[ziptie]

Thank you guys for all this very useful information. I am a network engineer and never considered powerline networking for this, but it seems like the perfect application for it. Even though they typically get no where near their advertised speeds, it is more than enough for a low bitrate video stream.

By exceptional video quality I misspoke, I want exceptional identification quality. My doorbell cam has caught 4 car break-ins outside my house but I couldn't ID anyone from the clips to save my life.

here is the camera I was referring to in the OP, it looks like there is also a similar looking turret version of it.

4MP Color 3.6mm ePoE Bullet Camera with Night Color Technology – Dahua Technology USA Inc (dahuasecurity.com)

 

[wittaj]

Go by my distance recommendations to get the right camera for the right location to IDENTIFY in the areas that you want. A fixed lens isn't going to IDENTIFY much more out than 10-15 feet at night.

While it is a solid performer and with some ambient light will perform very well, if you do not have light, it will suffer. All cameras need light, simple physics. The cameras marketed as 24/7 color cameras do not have infrared capabilities, so if your camera doesn't have enough light, a 24/7 full color camera will not be of much good and now you have a camera with no infrared and even if you added external infrared, the camera will not see it since it does not have an infrared filter.

I have a Full Color type camera and the LED light on it is a gimmick. It helps for a small diameter circle, but it is no different than going outside at pitch black and turning on your cell phone light - it is bright looking directly at the LED light, but it doesn't spread out and reach very far. Fortunately I have enough ambient light that I do not need the little piddly LED light on and the picture quality actually looks worse with it on, but it performs better than my other cameras when tested at the same location due to the flood light. But without some light, a camera with infrared capability is the safer bet. Many here with the camera with the LED light on it do not use it for the very same reason - it's dispersion is not very far and doesn't light up near as well as putting a floodlight up.

So unless you have streetlights or flood lights, I would go with the camera with the 5442 as it has infrared capabilities if you need it.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Identification is more directly related to focal length and distance to the target. Yes, an 8MP video can be digitally zoomed more than a 4MP but the sacrifice of night performance makes it a poor tradeoff. Start with a varifocal and experiment with locations and focal length that way. There's a converter in the Wiki to give you an approximate focal length based on the zoom factor, or just use all varifocals. Just remember a varifocal is not a PTZ and is designed to be set and left at a specific focal length rather than being constantly zoomed in and out.

 

[ziptie]

I hadn't considered a zoom lens because I doubt id be in a position to tinker with zooming on things if the situation needed it. Does the AI software recognize people and automatically zoom in on them? Also, typically a zoom lens would have a variable or at least smaller aperture on lenses of this nature reducing IQ further.

I am a photographer and one part of this conversation that is confusing is that sensor size creates a "crop factor" on the same focal length lens among different sizes. For example a 50mm lens on a full frame camera is equivalent to 100mm FOV on a micro four thirds camera. but it seems like focal length recommendations are the same among the different sensor size security cameras.

 

[wittaj]

That would be an autotracking PTZ like the 49225, and yes this PTZ or any of the others with autotracking can do that.

The varifocal lens cameras are a set it and forget it, so you do not constantly zoom it in and out. With a varifocal camera, you optically zoom in to the area you want to cover, typically a pinch point or maybe a portion of the sidewalk or the driveway at the car door to catch a door checker, etc.

Obviously the more you optically zoom, the tighter the field of view.

 

[sebastiantombs]

I've got five varifocals at the moment and once they were set to the view I want at installation they haven't been moved. Yes, the optics of a zoom do increase the F stop of the lens, but that's a tradeoff I'm willing to make since it isn't all that significant.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Thank you guys for all this very useful information. I am a network engineer and never considered powerline networking for this, but it seems like the perfect application for it. Even though they typically get no where near their advertised speeds, it is more than enough for a low bitrate video stream.

By exceptional video quality I misspoke, I want exceptional identification quality. My doorbell cam has caught 4 car break-ins outside my house but I couldn't ID anyone from the clips to save my life.

here is the camera I was referring to in the OP, it looks like there is also a similar looking turret version of it.

4MP Color 3.6mm ePoE Bullet Camera with Night Color Technology – Dahua Technology USA Inc (dahuasecurity.com)

Yes, this camera also work very good

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-HFW5442T-ASE-NI-Full-Color-Fixed-Focal-Network/dp/B08C74BF54/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=IPC-HFW5442T-ASE-NI&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1620436989&s=merchant-items&sr=1-1

Review link is

Review: OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Pro AI Starlight Full-color Fixed Bullet

Many thanks once again to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY we have for testing the OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Starlight+ Full Color bullet. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a fixed 3.6mm bullet (Pro AI) series with the 1/1.8” sensor. It has no built in...

ipcamtalk.com