Darkfighter PTZ (DS-2DE7A825IW-AEB(T5)

[Defender574]

For $600 this seems like a phenomenal deal. Has anyone used one of these as I have not been able to find many reviews.

Another question is this unit able to be powered solely off of POE or is the additional power supply going to be needed?

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[bigredfish]

8MP with a 1/1.8" sensor thats made for 4MP?

No thanks

 

[wittaj]

+1 this above.

The answer doesn't change from what was provided to you in your other thread. 8MP on anything other than a 1/1.2" sensor will result in horrible night performance. Especially for a PTZ. Buy once, cry once. Don't chase MP, chase sensor size.

PTZ recommendation


Here is another real world example from the PTZ world showing why you don't chase MP.


This is from the Dahua 49225 (2MP on 1/2.8" sensor) versus 49425 (4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor)

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

So some people say "Hey I will just downrez the 8MP camera to a 4MP camera" and nope, downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 4MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 8MP to 4MP, so the native 4MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 4MP.

As you see above, I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.


But for kicks, let me downrez my 4MP to 2MP...

The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP 49425 down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP 49225 as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.

As always YMMV and I am sure the newer cameras are improved over when this camera came out, but even so I don't think we see a higher MP downrez come close to the performance of a native MP on the same size sensor because the higher MP just isn't letting enough light into the optics as the lower MP on the same size sensor.

And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

 

[Defender574]

+1 this above.

The answer doesn't change from what was provided to you in your other thread. 8MP on anything other than a 1/1.2" sensor will result in horrible night performance. Especially for a PTZ. Buy once, cry once. Don't chase MP, chase sensor size.

PTZ recommendation


Here is another real world example from the PTZ world showing why you don't chase MP.


This is from the Dahua 49225 (2MP on 1/2.8" sensor) versus 49425 (4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor)

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

So some people say "Hey I will just downrez the 8MP camera to a 4MP camera" and nope, downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 4MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 8MP to 4MP, so the native 4MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 4MP.

As you see above, I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.


But for kicks, let me downrez my 4MP to 2MP...

The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP 49425 down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP 49225 as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.

As always YMMV and I am sure the newer cameras are improved over when this camera came out, but even so I don't think we see a higher MP downrez come close to the performance of a native MP on the same size sensor because the higher MP just isn't letting enough light into the optics as the lower MP on the same size sensor.

And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

For my home application running it at night on color wouldn't be plausible. Is the ~$400 price difference of the PTZ5A4M worth it over grabbing over the SD49225XA-HNR-S2 2MP?

 

[wittaj]

Yes it is worth the price difference.

Even if you are running B/W and infrared, you still want ideal MP/sensor ratios. The effective distance will be cut at least in half if you are using a non-ideal MP/sensor ratio.

Keep in mind the 49225 is sold out and if it ever does become available, the newer versions won't support autotracking, so if you look for one on ebay or something, make sure it is an older one and not an S2 or higher version.

 

[wittaj]

Here is a comparison.

Thread 'Comparison pict SD49225T-HN vs Loryta PTZ5A4M-25X'

Mar 8, 2024

A venerable 2 mp 1/2.8" Starvis PTZ vs current 4 mp 1/1.8" sensor. These are caps at equivalent time of night. New 1/1.8" sensor is astonishingly sharper and much more light sensitive. Yes, the price difference is justified.


SD49225T-HN at 30 msec shutter.


Loryta PTZ5A4M-25X 16.667 msec shutter - even zoomed wider shows more finer features and shadow details. Biggest problem is now I want more of these.

• guykuo
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Dahua

• 
• 

 

[Defender574]

Here is a comparison.

Wow what a night and day difference

 

[wittaj]

Here is at a total dark spot and only infrared from the camera

2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor at 1/60 shutter at 385 feet:



4MP on same 1/2.8" sensor at 1/60 shutter at 365 feet (camera is 20 feet closer):

 

[wittaj]

Ideal MP/sensor ratio's are important for any camera, but even more so for a PTZ that see's a wide range of distances and lighting conditions.

And 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor will blow away any 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor.

 

[Defender574]

I have four B54IR-ZE-S3s around the house so that ptz should compliment the front of the house well

​

 

[Revo2Maxx]

Think there are some important things missing here.. Because I have a couple PTZs that are on the same sensor 1 is 4mp and other 2mp and the 4mp has a 4.8mm to start with the 2mp having a 4.7mm to start one is 25x the 4mp and the 2mp is 20x.. So I can tell you for sure that the 4mp after the last update has a better picture and no blurring with motion for the most point of the zoom range. Only thing that the 2mp does better now then the 4mp is zoom at distance because of the quality IR with zoom that the 2mp has that the 4mp don't. However if I zoom my 2mp into the same area as the 4mp and it uses that IR the 4mp again out performs the 2mp..

So there are a lot of factors that come into play in the case of my 1/2.8in sensor cameras.. Software is some of it as much as I hate to say that because I know there are some cameras out there that bloat software and have very bad motion blur. I just reset this back to factory so they are at the current default settings and hate to say it because of my 4mp I no longer like the company because they keep breaking things after every update and they won't send me the last FW to have functions back lol.. Only added in the Overlays didn't' change any other settings.. Clearly the 4mp has a better picture.. Even with 2mp camera in the way lol.. So my guess is it might be even better if there was no reflection of the IR off that camera. I know the camera is black and dull at that so reflection should be minor.. Anyway..

As much as it pains me to say it my 4mp camera now has better picture then the 2mp it wasn't that way for the first 3 years owning it lol. It wasn't until last July update that the picture was better.. I did make a video of it some time ago. Shortly after that video there was an update lol.. Just saying..

 

[giveme55]

8MP with a 1/1.8" sensor thats made for 4MP?

There is no 8MP sensor that is made for 4MP (unless there would be some pixel binning in place, usually 4 to 1 though). 8MP sensors are designed to be 8MP regardless of sensor/pixel size. Granted, smaller pixels mean lesser low light performance, but that's only true for sensors that use same technologies (stacked vs non-stacked, FSI vs BSI, multi transistor layer vs single layer, etc). Case in point, Sony's new 8MP 1/1.8 IMX838-AQR1 Starvis 2 with 2μm pixels, performs about the same in low light situations as Omnivision's 4MP 1/1.8 OS04A10 with 2.9μm pixels.
These days, judging sensor's low light performance based on megapixels/sensor size ratio just doesn't cut it anymore. You actually have to know what specific sensor is used.

8MP on anything other than a 1/1.2" sensor will result in horrible night performance.

Not necessarily true. As i said before, depends on the specific sensor.

And 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor will blow away any 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor.

Yet, they would have about the same pixel size (2.9μm in most cases). What you said contradicts with your optimal MP/sensor size ratio. If all else is equal, they would perform about the same in low light situations. Of course, you would get more detail on 4MP sensor though.

 

[wittaj]

There is no 8MP sensor that is made for 4MP (unless there would be some pixel binning in place, usually 4 to 1 though). 8MP sensors are designed to be 8MP regardless of sensor/pixel size. Granted, smaller pixels mean lesser low light performance, but that's only true for sensors that use same technologies (stacked vs non-stacked, FSI vs BSI, multi transistor layer vs single layer, etc). Case in point, Sony's new 8MP 1/1.8 IMX838-AQR1 Starvis 2 with 2μm pixels, performs about the same in low light situations as Omnivision's 4MP 1/1.8 OS04A10 with 2.9μm pixels.
These days, judging sensor's low light performance based on megapixels/sensor size ratio just doesn't cut it anymore. You actually have to know what specific sensor is used.


Not necessarily true. As i said before, depends on the specific sensor.

Yet, they would have about the same pixel size (2.9μm in most cases). What you said contradicts with your optimal MP/sensor size ratio. If all else is equal, they would perform about the same in low light situations. Of course, you would get more detail on 4MP sensor though.

Which camera is using the new Sony chip.....

Until that happens our recommendations holds true based on the chipset and technology used....

 

[bigredfish]

There is no 8MP sensor that is made for 4MP (unless there would be some pixel binning in place, usually 4 to 1 though). 8MP sensors are designed to be 8MP regardless of sensor/pixel size. Granted, smaller pixels mean lesser low light performance, but that's only true for sensors that use same technologies (stacked vs non-stacked, FSI vs BSI, multi transistor layer vs single layer, etc). Case in point, Sony's new 8MP 1/1.8 IMX838-AQR1 Starvis 2 with 2μm pixels, performs about the same in low light situations as Omnivision's 4MP 1/1.8 OS04A10 with 2.9μm pixels.
These days, judging sensor's low light performance based on megapixels/sensor size ratio just doesn't cut it anymore. You actually have to know what specific sensor is used.


Not necessarily true. As i said before, depends on the specific sensor.

Yet, they would have about the same pixel size (2.9μm in most cases). What you said contradicts with your optimal MP/sensor size ratio. If all else is equal, they would perform about the same in low light situations. Of course, you would get more detail on 4MP sensor though.

Thank you. It sounds as if you know much more about the latest sensor technology than I.

I will reaffirm that just like 4MP cams using 1/2.8 sensors vs 1/1.8 sensors (current model Dahua) there is a clear difference in low light capability.

I’ve also 8MP in both 1/1.2 a s 1/1.8 and there is just as clear a difference.

Perhaps this new sensor technology will make that disparity vanish, but I’m not seeing it on current Dahua cams.

If there is such a beast in production, I would gladly buy one to test heads up

 

[giveme55]

Which camera is using the new Sony chip.....

Dahua cameras? None, and it probably never will. Other camera manufacturers, yes, chances that Sony is making sensors just for shit and giggles is rather small.
My comparison between the two sensors was just to show the difference between sensor generations and not to make some absolute claims as often seen in this forum regarding sensor size and resolution. Even same sensor model is often made in several variants at different price points and different performance. Think of Sony's IMX335 for example. LLN variant outperforms LQN by quite a margin.
And if you think it doesn't happen in Dahua's world then you're mistaken. Compare N53CB62 and HFW5541E. Same sensor size and resolution but different outcomes. Is it the sensor capabilities ie different generation (or different manufacturer) or is it more modern and capable SOC?

Not saying you guys are wrong, I'm just saying there's far more more wiggle room then what's in your IP cameras bible charts. And depending on each individual case, sometimes difference is so small that just isn't worth the $$ to step up to larger sensor.

 

[bigredfish]

We're pretty clear when we're speaking of current production, (or older) Dahua /HiK equipment. We do make generalities, and aren't quite as stupid as you come off thinking we are. We're aware for instance and advise others, that the new SOC in the S3 models of Dahua perform better than their predecessor with the same sensor size..

We also have to deal with 99% of the people coming here asking questions about general residential video with next to Zero knowledge or understanding beyond what they saw on an ad at Home Depot, and can't really get down into the engineering sheet of the SOC and various sensor specifications that MAY be available somewhere. Nobody really wants to go there. Its not a lab, its their front yard.
Feel free to jump right in there and help 5 newbies tomorrow.

Again can you point me to a camera for sale with Sony's new 8MP 1/1.8 IMX838-AQR1 Starvis 2 with 2μm pixels?

 

[wittaj]

So you can't name a surveillance camera using the new Sony chip?.....

It is well known that for the most part surveillance cameras are generations behind camera counterparts in drones or iphones or dashcams that are using the latest sensors and tech.

We don't know the comparisons of the two Dahua you are mentioning because nobody here would recommend a 5MP as it doesn't fit on our ideal MP/sensor ratio that has been developed over years of experience collectively by the members here with all sorts of camera brands and models. But we would love to learn and please show examples of what you are talking about regarding these two 5MP Dahua cams.

And of course we recognize the differences of sensor generations. Look at the significant improvement of the 5442 with S3 chipset versus the original 5442 and we discuss and point that out.

And of course we talk about the differences in manufacturers as well. Reolink surprisingly makes a 4MP on what we call the ideal sensor size, yet no comparison between that and a Dahua.

When we talk about our "bible charts" it is in relation to the cameras being discussed.

The MP/sensor ratio is part of the equation and the sensor and vendor firmware is the rest of the equation. Sadly, most quit marketing the sensor they are using and you have to take it apart to figure it out. Right now, the professionals are telling us that Dahua and Hikvision are using same sensor and SOC (Omnivision), the same AI-ISP algorithms. So when we make the comparisons, it is with generally the same stuff.

Regarding these sensors and algorithms, if two manufactures are using the same model sensor, then it comes down to firmware implementation as to how well the camera performs. Axis for example will blow away Dahua, but is it worth the cost to the homeowner?

It used to be somewhat common to see many cameras claim Starlight capabilities. As you know, Starlight and Starvis are simply a marketing term created by Sony for certain models of a Sony sensor. But at least we know the camera has the same sensor.

So we used to see many 2MP cameras on the market claiming Starlight as their selling point. HDView, Dahua, Amcrest, Lorex, Reolink, and many no-name brands on Amazon and AliExpress use Starlight in their write-up.

But does that mean these no-name cameras will perform as well as say a Dahua with the exact same Sony Starlight sensor?

The answer is NO.


Generally, the cameras that are on what we call ideal MP/sensor ratios tend to be better cameras with better firmware. But they all don't perform the same. Between Hikvision and Dahua, they would be comparable. Axis will be better. Most of the other cameras and cheap no name probably not.

But back in the day Reolink got in the mix and had a 2MP - 1/2.8" starlight sensor that showed how important the firmware is.

So they had the same sensor as the top of the line Dahua in the day, but this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos of their Starlight camera - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

As I said, now Reolink has once again entered the ideal MP/sensor ratio with the 1/1.8" sensor.

The CX410 is one such camera. Let's take a look.

While it is on the proper MP/sensor ratio (4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor) with a large f1.0 aperture, at $95 it would be a steal if it worked like other full color cameras that cost $200ish

Sadly, it appears to suffer from the same issues of reolink, which is poor night quality and ghosting, etc. And look how washed out the camera on the right is when the lights kick on.

Is missing a leg normal?

Are these captures that could IDENTIFY a person? Looks like the person is close enough that a Dahua could provide IDENTIFY quality.

But it benefits from the light turning on with motion. Wonder if the camera gets momentarily blinded.

Um yep.


So while yeah we hear you, we are making our generalities based on the question and cameras being discussed and is more than sufficient for the knowledge level of the person coming in asking the questions that are coming from some box kit they bought at Home Depot LOL.

 

[bigredfish]

I found one I think. About $3800 US

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Wrong sensor I believe. Can't find one

SONY sensors

Security Camera Image Sensor [Product] | Products & Solutions | Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group

Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group develops device business which includes Micro display, LSIs, and Semiconductor Laser, in focusing on Image Sensor.

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[Revo2Maxx]

3800 for a camera with a 1/2.7in sensor yeah I will pass don't care the tech it has with backlight and all the other things it says it has.. Interesting lol.

 

[bigredfish]

Just deciphered the language, it cant be the same sensor he mentioned. I can't find a camera with it.