Does a 4-5MP version of the HFW5241E-Z12E exist with large sensor?

CamCrazy

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Sorry for being somewhat lazy here, I use a HFW5241E-Z12E for ANPR duties and need a similar camera to cover about 50 feet distance, non ANPR use. Wondered if anything existed from Dahua with good zoom but maybe in the 4MP range using a larger sensor. I also use the HFW5442EP-ZE cameras, great quality but didn't think they had offered anything with that sensor and more zoom. Image quality is priority, night time images are IR only due to location.

I have been out of the loop for a while and things move pretty fast I know!!

Thanks in advance.
 

wittaj

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Unfortunately it does not at that much zoom. We have asked, but they don't make a Z12E in the 4MP version.

However, the 5442-Z4E should get you to 50 feet for non ANPR use. It is an incredible camera.

 

CamCrazy

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Unfortunately it does not at that much zoom. We have asked, but they don't make a Z12E in the 4MP version.

However, the 5442-Z4E should get you to 50 feet for non ANPR use. It is an incredible camera.

So grateful for the prompt and as ever knowledgeable reply, this must be the same reason they don't seem to use that 5442 sensor in PTZ cameras, I guess. How would you say the 5442-Z4E-S3 performs under purely IR lighting, worst case scenario? your samples look pretty good and I know the 5442 cameras I've got running are incredibly impressive! do you think that camera could stretch to 70-80 feet or is that getting too much.
 
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wittaj

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If your existing 5442 cameras are the old orange GUI, the new S3 chipset is almost like a new camera. But even then 70-80 feet for IDENTIFY is pushing it.
 

CamCrazy

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If your existing 5442 cameras are the old orange GUI, the new S3 chipset is almost like a new camera. But even then 70-80 feet for IDENTIFY is pushing it.
Very interesting, I am out of touch this last year or so! sadly. My HFW5241E-Z12E is running ANPR duties at about 80-90 feet and I suspect that is close to the distance I need for this new camera, maybe I will try one anyway! No doubt not really wise to use them at full zoom but the 5442 series sensor is just so good. Pains me to get 2MP once you have seen the images it can produce.
 

CamCrazy

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This is my Z4E at approximately 60ft.
View attachment 193616

And my Z12E-S3 at approximately 95ft.
View attachment 193617
Appreciate the images, thank you for taking the time. Any thoughts on comparisons, or is it a case of right zoom for the job. The Z4E looks like a more natural and detailed image to my eyes at least. I find with my Z12E and HFW5442EP-ZE that the latter can produce almost as nice looking image at slightly further distance, stating the obvious I guess but just more natural looking due to the larger sensor and 4MP.
 

CamCrazy

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I did some rough calculations based on my 4.8-120mm PTZ zoom range, to estimate what I would need.

Dahua work on a 0-25 zoom range for that 120mm PTZ

25% = 30mm

50% = 60mm

75% = 90mm

100% = 120mm

Works out at roughly 4.6mm over estimate per zoom increment in theory. Which equates to zoom 7 on the PTZ, or close enough.

The distance I need for the fixed camera works out at zoom 7-8 on the PTZ, I calculate the mm range to be equivalent 32.2 - 36.8mm

Maybe the 32mm max would just scrape under the wire for me, this isn't for ANPR otherwise 60mm zoom would be required.
 

Ri22o

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Appreciate the images, thank you for taking the time. Any thoughts on comparisons, or is it a case of right zoom for the job. The Z4E looks like a more natural and detailed image to my eyes at least. I find with my Z12E and HFW5442EP-ZE that the latter can produce almost as nice looking image at slightly further distance, stating the obvious I guess but just more natural looking due to the larger sensor and 4MP.
It's not a fair comparison as I am still working on the settings for the Z12E, but it does show that the 2MP is still capable of good detail at that distance.

My thoughts were right zoom for the job and night time performance. The Z4E is maxed out, but I can see what I want to see, so it works. The Z12E-S3 was chosen for better night time visibility given the distance and lack of light in the area, plus the additional zoom.
 

CamCrazy

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It's not a fair comparison as I am still working on the settings for the Z12E, but it does show that the 2MP is still capable of good detail at that distance.

My thoughts were right zoom for the job and night time performance. The Z4E is maxed out, but I can see what I want to see, so it works. The Z12E-S3 was chosen for better night time visibility given the distance and lack of light in the area, plus the additional zoom.
Appreciate the feedback, the Z4E would certainly be maxed out for my use, where as the Z12 would have plenty breathing space. I am quite reluctant to buy 2MP now, once you see the 5442 series quality and IR performance, difficult to argue against them.

Maybe I will have to settle on a Z12 for this application, interesting that power draw on both cameras is similar but IR range on Z12 is in theory greater, assume they have a narrower beam focus.
 

wittaj

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Appreciate the feedback, the Z4E would certainly be maxed out for my use, where as the Z12 would have plenty breathing space. I am quite reluctant to buy 2MP now, once you see the 5442 series quality and IR performance, difficult to argue against them.

Maybe I will have to settle on a Z12 for this application, interesting that power draw on both cameras is similar but IR range on Z12 is in theory greater, assume they have a narrower beam focus.
Remember not to chase MP and choose the focal length to OPTICAL zoom for the distance to IDENTIFY is much better than more MP and DIGITAL zoom.



Excerpt from that thread:

Here is a great example of two images taken at the same time (early AM while still dark out) of the same person 60 feet away from just slightly different angles - one from the 5442-ZE 4MP set to 3.6mm that I digitally zoomed to make the person about the same size as the person in the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed.

Could this digitally zoomed image be used by police to IDENTIFY.



trash 4MP digital zoom.jpg






trash 2MP optical zoomed.png




In case someone cannot figure it out, the 4MP that is digitally zoomed in is the B&W picture and the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in is the color picture LOL.

I think most would agree that the optically zoomed 2MP picture beats the digitally zoomed 4MP picture - you can make out details and read some of the signage and make out bolts, etc. that are just a blur on the 4MP, which is being benefited by the same light the 2MP camera is getting plus the IR.


EDIT: someone asked in a later post here why the 4MP with the better sensor was in B/W while the 2MP was in color. The answer is simple. The 4MP didn't require IR illumination - That camera was not set up to IDENTIFY at that distance, but rather up close within 10-15 feet of the camera and I CHOOSE to run it in B/W for the faster shutter to get a cleaner capture. That 4MP runs fine in color and is actually brighter than the 2MP.

This Thread was an afterthought long after those images were taken or I would have done a color to color comparison (but wait I have something close).

However, I am always tweaking my cams and will bounce back and forth between B/W and color and I happen to have a similar shot of the 4MP fixed lens in color from a different day.



1684410591851.png



So in theory, the 4MP B/W was at its best opportunity to get a clean digital image due to the white light and Infrared light it was getting and that is also kinda evident comparing the 4MP color versus B/W images.

So as you can see, this shows that whether it was in color or B/W, at night with limited light, it will be a messy digital zoomed image whether it is in color or B/W, but the B/W would stand a better chance due to seeing infrared light, but an OPTICALLY zoomed camera will produce the best image for a set distance.
 

CamCrazy

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Appreciate that @wittaj and I do avoid digital zoom, no worries there. Also totally understand your point, I am not a megapixel chaser but do favour low light performance. Until the 5442 series I had always favoured the 2MP starlights, but the 5442 sensor has blown me away frankly, the numbers on paper for lux levels look the same but the 4MP image is frankly amazing.

I did some comparisons with my 2MP and 4MP for similar distance with the same subject and also with the 4MP further away, not a huge difference in some ways but for ID on a subject the 4MP is useful. I am very much torn on this one, knowing how nice the 5442 performs at lower light levels that Z4E is tempting, I feel like 32mm on a Z4E might draw level with 36-38mm on a Z12E, when viewed at 100%, at the same time the 5442 sensor would produce it's usual high standard of image both day and night :facepalm:

Of course as is often the case, I really need a Z4E on the wide side and Z12E zoomed in. This camera is replacing a PTZ which has been covering a narrow road whilst also getting used now and then for PTZ tasks. A tough call, if a 5442 existed with 60mm zoom then the deal would be done, stretching to a SD5A425GA-HNR for this job is just a bit over the top, especially since I need to order one of those for actual PTZ work also this year.
 

wittaj

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^At that size and probably price, I would go with a PTZ LOL.

Plus do we know if that camera blends the two images together?
 

bigredfish

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I want one bad and have a place for it, but it is overkill for my coverage area.

If only that 4x4 had a fixed wide lens of 3.6mm it would be perfect. 8mm will overshoot my primary choke point

The next model a step down would be ideal BUT
  • they reduced the sensor size
  • No IVS on the 2nd channel
IPC-MFW7442K1-Z4-T40 - Dahua International
 

CamCrazy

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I want one bad and have a place for it, but it is overkill for my coverage area.

If only that 4x4 had a fixed wide lens of 3.6mm it would be perfect. 8mm will overshoot my primary choke point

The next model a step down would be ideal BUT
  • they reduced the sensor size
  • No IVS on the 2nd channel
IPC-MFW7442K1-Z4-T40 - Dahua International
I have found that the more I use PTZ cameras, the more I wish all of my others were PTZ, of course they are bulky and expensive so not ideal. I do have some which have no need to move around, others I sometimes find myself going for the controls only to find there are none :)

Side note, there is no such thing as overkill, simply over preparation, that is never a bad thing :thumb:
 

Ri22o

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Appreciate that @wittaj and I do avoid digital zoom, no worries there. Also totally understand your point, I am not a megapixel chaser but do favour low light performance. Until the 5442 series I had always favoured the 2MP starlights, but the 5442 sensor has blown me away frankly, the numbers on paper for lux levels look the same but the 4MP image is frankly amazing.

I did some comparisons with my 2MP and 4MP for similar distance with the same subject and also with the 4MP further away, not a huge difference in some ways but for ID on a subject the 4MP is useful. I am very much torn on this one, knowing how nice the 5442 performs at lower light levels that Z4E is tempting, I feel like 32mm on a Z4E might draw level with 36-38mm on a Z12E, when viewed at 100%, at the same time the 5442 sensor would produce it's usual high standard of image both day and night :facepalm:

Of course as is often the case, I really need a Z4E on the wide side and Z12E zoomed in. This camera is replacing a PTZ which has been covering a narrow road whilst also getting used now and then for PTZ tasks. A tough call, if a 5442 existed with 60mm zoom then the deal would be done, stretching to a SD5A425GA-HNR for this job is just a bit over the top, especially since I need to order one of those for actual PTZ work also this year.
Unfortunately that's the problem with the 5442, once you use them you don't really want to use anything else. Due to the form factor, I installed a wedge next to the door for ID, I would much rather have a 5442 there and may eventually end up switching it out when I have nothing else to do, but it's not high on the list.
 

CamCrazy

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Unfortunately that's the problem with the 5442, once you use them you don't really want to use anything else. Due to the form factor, I installed a wedge next to the door for ID, I would much rather have a 5442 there and may eventually end up switching it out when I have nothing else to do, but it's not high on the list.
Totally agree, my head is telling me to get a 2MP with 60mm and heart is saying go with a 5442 at 32mm. Just seems like backwards steps using the older sensor now, things move very quickly in this field.

In fact this has encouraged me to get a couple of the other more critical 2MP cameras swapped out for 5442 replacements, daytime is not such an issue but at night the 5442 really does earn its money.
 
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