Door Bell Development Request

CCTVCam

CCTVCam

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Sep 25, 2017
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Some feedback for those in contact with Manufacturers or who Manufacturer their own doorbell cameras. eg Nelly's, Andy @ EmpireTech etc.

There still dosn't seem to be a decent doorbell solution. To this end I'd like to feedback some simple product feature requests I believe make a difference to manufacturing a good quality doorbell solution and give us all a good solution for situations where a full size camera isn't appopriate or can't be fitted:

1. Sony IMX 335 sensor with Novatek NT96670 chipset. This is found in the excellent Viofo A119 V3 dashcamera and can clearly be produced to a reasonable price in a small package. The image quality is good day and night and at 1440P offers a more useful capture than 1080P. This is the current best I've seen in a small package cheap camera. No doubt it will change over time. However, we need to get away from 1080P which doesn't have enough resolution.

2. Higher bit rates.

3. Better lenses! Surely time to get a 150 degree+ low distortion lens in a doorbell? The current doorbells seem to have fisheyes with terrible distortion / clarity. The dashcam menbtioned above has a very good lens in a small package.

3. Wireless Bell Trigger - all doorbell cameras seem to still be using a wired bell format with the US in mind. In the EU, due to the extensive use of uPVC doors almost no-one has transformer / wire connected door bells / sounders anymore in favour of 433mhz wireless sounders.

I appreciate battery operation may be impossible with a camera recording 24/7 - surely the answer is POE for power / video out and 433mhz signal for the doorbell sounder?

If POE isn't practical or manufacturers want to keep the cameras average consumer friendly then maybe a power transformer connection but the doorbelll trigger signal over 433mhz wireless and picture over wifi (with poe as an option?).

This is probably the most popular brand of doorbell in the EU (the 240v refers to the power for the mains operated sounder, not the doorbell!!!!): Byron DBY-22314UK Wireless doorbell set DBY314UK | Byron . Amazon and major electrical retailers, catatalogue chains are resellers of these.
 
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The Everly Brothers did a song that applies here, called "Dream".

The problem is that a doorbell like that would be expensive, relative to what is currently available, due to development and manufacturing costs. That's excerbated by the relatively limited market of people who would want, and be able to actually take advantage of, that list of features. Frankly, if someone built one like that I'd buy three if the price was under $300 per unit, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Demand just isn't there when compared to the Ring style stuff.
 
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Dream maybe but why woul it be expensive? The Wireless used to trigger the doorbell sounder in many EU doorbells is found in doorbel sets costing as little as £15 and that's for the complete package of doorbell push plus a wireless sounder. So the wireless element obviously only costs a few pounds but if you want to treat the package as the whole price as a doorbell camera needs all the elements of a doorbell, then it should be profiable at £15 retail. The Viofo camera mention above is around £120 retail. Not sure how much a poe adapter costs, but I guess only a few pounds. So potentially it should be doable with a retail below £150 if you take stock of the devices these elements are already in.

If you're wondering what triggered this, a delivery driver broke my letter box using brute force and now the company denies it. Obviosuly I need a camera there. However, the door bell specs have been on my mind for a while because almost no-one in the EU sells wired doorbells anymore because why would you endure the troubles of running a transformer from the electricty cupboard to the front door routing cable when you can just stick a wireless bell push on the door in seconds with no wiring?
 
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It costs money to hire a designer, or three, even as subciontractors. Think about it, you need a video expert, and electronics expert and a mechanical expert (enclosure) all working closely together to get it designed. Net comes prototyping and, probably, redesigning to get it working properly and be "cost effective" to build. Next up is finding a production facility for the board, the enclosure and all the rest. Then there's the packaging and advertising, and I'm just touching on the major points. A market for hundreds of thousands of them MIGHT lower the unit price, but not a lot and the market for a doorbell like this isn't all that big hence the cost is prohibitive.

As far as the "trouble" of running a wire to the door for a doorbell, that's normally done when the house is built or remodeled and amounts to very little cost. The other thing is reliability. Battery powered RF devices can fail and there's no way to know unless you go out there and test the doorbell every day. A transformer powered device will work as long as there's power which is pretty reliable everywhere.

Personally, I'd think adding PoE capability would be the first thing to do and be relatively inexpensive to do. The biggest reliability failure is the video feed because video over WiFi is significantly different than a PC connected by WiFi.
 
I don't disagree but people such as Dahua and Nelly's are already manufacturing video doorbells, so I don't see any significant development costs beyond what they might incur for their next video doorbell model anyway. The only real difference between this and current doorbells is the addition of POE and Wireless sounding. Wireless sounding already exists at a low cost and poe I presume wouldn't be diffciult for someone like Dahua / Hik who already fit poe to many of their cameras. Personally not bothered about video over wifi, but if it made the doorbell profitable, then I'm sure Dahua / Hik have some consumer grade wifi camera solutions already.

Would just be nice to see someone consider this rather than us just getting the same old 1080P transformer and doorbell wire solution only, over and over again with no real quality or convenience of fitment.
 
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For that matter, what would be so hard about providing either wireless or wired doorbell capabilities? Fit both worlds equally well. The big problem seems o be PoE for some reason, probably related to the electronics, buck converter, required for PoE. Even Dahua and Hikvision would have those same costs and their designers are probably on staff. Just a guess, but I'd put development costs, even working from an existing WiFi, crappy, one like they both make, would run into a couple of hundred of thousand. Then, the old manufacturing rule of "times three" comes into play and you're approaching a megabuck in terms of a marketable product produced. Like I said, originally, we can dream.
 
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sebastiantombs said:
For that matter, what would be so hard about providing either wireless or wired doorbell capabilities? Fit both worlds equally well. The big problem seems o be PoE for some reason, probably related to the electronics, buck converter, required for PoE. Even Dahua and Hikvision would have those same costs and their designers are probably on staff. Just a guess, but I'd put development costs, even working from an existing WiFi, crappy, one like they both make, would run into a couple of hundred of thousand. Then, the old manufacturing rule of "times three" comes into play and you're approaching a megabuck in terms of a marketable product produced. Like I said, originally, we can dream.
Click to expand...

But surely Sebastian Dhaua and Hik will come out with a new model doorbell at some point anyway, which means as they're going to develop one, those development cost will be part of a roadmap already. There maybe a slight additional cost to the time spent testing wireless and poe, but that aside, the makority of development should be pre-financed as a natural part of product lifespan cycle, unless fo course they envisage everyone using 1080P wired door bells in 2323!
 
Agreed. But both already implement poe and wireless in their cameras so I doubt it's a stretch to integrate it into a doorbell product plus the people with the knowledge are probably permanently on staff.
 
I think there is a serious problem when trying to put the technology that's in a prosumer grade camera into a package the size of a doorbell camera. As good as LSI is today, it still ain't near good enough to do that or the current bullets and turrets would be a tenth the size they are. One of the reasons WiFI doesn't work so well in them is the size/power restrictions imposed on the WiFi chips themselves.

And definitely don't forget the costs of getting the firmware developed and working. Watching the threads of the current doorbells and all the problems with firmware and interoperability with what they are actually supposed to work with, let alone what people try to make them work with, and that is another area where things fall apart very quickly. Heck, there are even problems with firmware for the much larger, and far more popular, cameras. I, for one, definitely don;t want a PoE doorbell that needs to be upgraded on a sunny day, with a gentle south wind, in 75 degree temps, while I dance a waltz with a walrus and, even then, it fails more often than succeeds.

I sure hope this one that looney2nes is going to review works out better than the last one he reviewed.
 
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We need Starlight+ on these door bells as well. Don't want 30 cameras fixated on one spot :facepalm:
 
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sebastiantombs said:
I think there is a serious problem when trying to put the technology that's in a prosumer grade camera into a package the size of a doorbell camera.
Click to expand...

Dashcameras? There are several models of dashcamera on the market that shame doorbell cameras in the picture quality department in my opinion. Pretty much the only items missing are a wireless bell push and poe. A wireless bell push is small and cheap - replacement wireless belll pushes for existing wireless bells cost around £8 @ retail, so probably aroound $2-3 at manufacturing when you take the distributor and retialer margins out. Poe - I'm sure integrating an output socket can't be that difficult in a small package. The biggest issue with small packages tends to be heat and thus waterproofing is the enemy, but look at GoPro. I believe it can be done. It's persuading the companies not to plod along with old technology so much that's the problem. I'm guessing doorbell cameras are only a minute portion of the big CCTV Brand's trade, and there's little quality competition to push innovation.
 
I'm still very happy with my VTO2000A-VTNS-VTH1550 combination: [Review] VTO2000A & VTH1550CH & VTNS1060A Intercom Kit

My to-date evaluation (after 2y+!):
Positives:
  • Push notifications come in instantly
  • Very modern design (brushed metal casing) which fits our modern house
  • Linkable into Dahua NVR for 24/7 recording just like each other cam --> even people not ringing but "looking" at our door will be grabbed
Less-positives:
  • Wired (unfortunately no "real" POE but one of the VTNS-POE stuff)
  • "Mwêh" image configuration, luckily I've got a corridor where people are standing max 2 meter from the camera, hence positive ID is doable.
  • It took a shitload of time to find the correct "procedure" to flash/upgrade/configure the stuff together. But once it works, it's undestructable.
And especially a big thanks to @EMPIRETECANDY for the firmware updates.

Happy Camming!
CC
 
A dashcam is still too large a form factor for a doorbell replacement. The RCA/Hik/Whatever is kind fo big for that, already. Compared to a dashcam a doorbell cam is much smaller and far "flatter". Most people aren't willing, or able, to cut a hole an inch or more deep into their house to get a doorbell camera in place. It's not only the size, it's the form it has to be in that make it very difficult to incorporate all these features into an appropriate package. And, again, if dashcams are so great why is my 5442T-AS so big? Simply to get all the electronics and a reasonable lens into it. The electronics being a major factor. Heat dissipation is another problem with such a small form factor. PoE is, essentially, a buck converter. A buck converter generates heat with how much heat depending on its efficiency. Size and price will influence that efficiency significantly. That's why a lot of the doorbells run "hot" just off an 16 volt transformer.
 
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