Experience Identifying vs Deterring

[defenestrate]

Hi all,

Long story short, crime in my town is on a steep rise, and the police care factor has long fallen pass the zero mark.

I've been lurking here for months and keeping an eye on Andy's/EmpireTech store on AliExpress to see what my options are and what's available.

I did try to search for a similar discussion, but I couldn't find exactly what I was after.

I've learnt a lot from reading the discussions here and studying the awesome review footage/comparisons, so I know what my options are camera wise; 5442 series for the best night time IR (I was after bullets, but turrets seem to be more readily available and could be advantageous for mounting to walls where there are no eaves) , 5842 for night time IR if I really wanted 4K, or Color4K-X for low light colour and if the shallow depth of field isn't too bothersome.

I don't have a lot of light around my house, and I have a spare block of land next door, so I have no hope of realistically covering everything, I'll mostly be focusing on house entry/choke points. and whatever option I end up with I'll start with one camera to test the FOV and positioning etc. (which I'm pretty sure I can just plug the camera into my notebook and view until I choose an NVR?).

My dilemma is the police care factor, and whether it's best to try and identify the thief's and trespassers with night time IR for the police to do nothing (at most it would be useful to shame them on the community Facebook page), or to try and deter them with sensor lights and still capture them.

I'm wondering what the expert opinions here would be on identifying vs deterring, or achieving both.

I don't particularly want a camera with in built deterrence features because I don't want a siren going off at midnight for no reason, or an in built LED to fail and then need to replace an entire camera to fix the system.

And I imagine having an IR camera with separate sensor lights might work to identify and then deter, so long as the sensor light range is shorter than the identifying range (and if the IR from the camera doesn't interfere with the sensor), but the changeover and adjustment from IR to colour when the sensor light activates will probably be way too slow to capture anything useful on colour.

So then I thought maybe the Color4K-X might be able to handle the sensor light better if I could tune it in to a point where it doesn't need to adjust the image too much, and aid it with some solar garden lights. I'm guessing the in built LEDs on the Color4K-X might be able to function as a sensor light, but again, I'm just not sold on their reliability long term.

I guess in the end if any thief is desperate enough they can defeat any cameras usefulness, but what are your thoughts? Would you run with the 5442/5842 in IR mode, with some short range sensor lights to scare them off when they get really close to the house? Or run the Color4K-X with some supplemental solar lights and try to adjust it to capture them when the sensor lights turn on?

Thanks in advance.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Just b aware that a camera needs a little time to adjust to different lighting conditions. That's not much of a problem going from sunny to cloudy to night because those are longer events, but when white light pops on it's instant and the camera needs to adjust accordingly. They've gotten much faster recently making those adjustments, but it still takes time which can be critical. It all comes down to testing before doing a final installation to see if you can get acceptable results.

 

[defenestrate]

Just b aware that a camera needs a little time to adjust to different lighting conditions. That's not much of a problem going from sunny to cloudy to night because those are longer events, but when white light pops on it's instant and the camera needs to adjust accordingly. They've gotten much faster recently making those adjustments, but it still takes time which can be critical. It all comes down to testing before doing a final installation to see if you can get acceptable results.

Thanks for the quick reply!

I understand that. I've got realistically low expectations. I just thought it's best to ask and bounce the idea around to see what the consensus is. It's not exactly cheap to spend $300ish AUD just for testing sake. I'd like to be reasonably sure and have a plan before spending any $$$.

TBH now that I've written it out I'm probably thinking the 5442 with sensor lights really close to the house is the best option.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Get one camera and one motion light. Set up test rigs for both to simulate where they'd be installed. Give it a thorough test to see if that combination will work in your particular circumstances and to your satisfaction. There is no way for anyone to know, with any certainty, if it'll work without actually testing it out.

 

[wittaj]

There are enough videos here and on NextDoor that perps do not even flinch with motion activated lights.

They are more deterred from the place being lit up all night and will skip it to go somewhere else.

Watch this video someone posted and how the floodlight comes on and they don't even flinch. But then the audio comes on and they don't know which way to run LOL.

https://ipcamtalk.com/attachments/whatsapp-video-2020-07-28-at-7-23-08-pm-mp4.73970/

 

[defenestrate]

Get one camera and one motion light. Set up test rigs for both to simulate where they'd be installed. Give it a thorough test to see if that combination will work in your particular circumstances and to your satisfaction. There is no way for anyone to know, with any certainty, if it'll work without actually testing it out.

Alright, I'll have to give it a go. Is Andy's AliExpress store stock levels pretty accurate? Just gauging what to start with by what's listed there. I might have to get in touch with him on here or via email first.

There are enough videos here and on NextDoor that perps do not even flinch with motion activated lights.

They are more deterred from the place being lit up all night and will skip it to go somewhere else.

Watch this video someone posted and how the floodlight comes on and they don't even flinch. But then the audio comes on and they don't know which way to run LOL.

https://ipcamtalk.com/attachments/whatsapp-video-2020-07-28-at-7-23-08-pm-mp4.73970/

Ahh I see. Bugger! They just seem to get more and more confident these jerks. Is that the owner on the microphone or a prerecorded thing? It's pretty hilarious watching them scatter

 

[wittaj]

Yeah, his AliExpress store stock is accurate and you usually get it faster than it says. You can always reach out to him directly.

He said it was pre-recorded, but it sounded live and was awesome!

 

[defenestrate]

Yeah, his AliExpress store stock is accurate and you usually get it faster than it says. You can always reach out to him directly.

He said it was pre-recorded, but it sounded live and was awesome!

Awesome thank you!

That's a great idea! Let's them know they're being watched and think there's someone watching them live. I could throw some more colourful words at them too haha

 

[CCTVCam]

One way of deterring and identifying is you could install solar lighting, especially in Aus, to give a background lighting all around the house and then use sensor activate flood lights to re-inforce them if someone approahces the property. This has 2 advanatages - one your can light at no cost beyond the initial outlay on solar and two your camera isn't having to adjust from pitch black to light but rather low light to light. There are solar floods that go from dim to bright upon detection although I'd personally stick with wired lights for floods just in case you have a spell of bad weather and don't have sufficient power for them to stay on or step up in brightness. Solar floods don't tend to be very bright anyway sao are best as a deterrance rather than a main light source.

 

[defenestrate]

One way of deterring and identifying is you could install solar lighting, especially in Aus, to give a background lighting all around the house and then use sensor activate flood lights to re-inforce them if someone approahces the property. This has 2 advanatages - one your can light at no cost beyond the initial outlay on solar and two your camera isn't having to adjust from pitch black to light but rather low light to light. There are solar floods that go from dim to bright upon detection although I'd personally stick with wired lights for floods just in case you have a spell of bad weather and don't have sufficient power for them to stay on or step up in brightness. Solar floods don't tend to be very bright anyway sao are best as a deterrance rather than a main light source.

That's definitely a good option. There's some pretty nifty solar lights around nowadays. As you touched on though, it's just going to be a bummer when it's been unusually cloudy and raining for a week, then the solar lights don't work, and there's no moonlight. Then the low light to light adjustment gets thrown out. The only way around that is to fit up some low low power outdoor leds with a dusk/dawn sensor, maybe even the floodlight motion sensor if there's such a thing in one package. Nothing is perfect!

As tasty as the Color4k looks, and as much as I'm changing my mind back forth like "maybe I could have it of I do this", I'm pretty sure for my situation I'm going to have to go with the 5442/5842 for the IR, probably the 5442 by the looks of what's available. It's probably going to be a long while yet before the 1/1.2" 8MP sensor of the Color4k makes it into the varifocals, and into the more widely available mainstream position of the 4MP cameras right now. And by then we'll probably be salivating over some new 8K variant, or there might be a 4MP on the 1/1.2" sensor that still beats the 4K. Who knows, anything is possible! Maybe I'll just succumb to the temptation and buy both just cause...

I know, I know, don't worry, I've read almost every newb thread! Don't chase the MP, no camera does it all, and I'll always want more cameras. I've already got the itch seeing the results shown off here and thinking of all the angle and spots to put them haha.

BTW I might've browsed passed it, or am looking in the wrong part of the forums, but is there a set-up showcase section where everyone shows off what they're using by any chance? - Nevermind, found it.

 

[TechieTech]

There are enough videos here and on NextDoor that perps do not even flinch with motion activated lights.

They are more deterred from the place being lit up all night and will skip it to go somewhere else.

Watch this video someone posted and how the floodlight comes on and they don't even flinch. But then the audio comes on and they don't know which way to run LOL.

https://ipcamtalk.com/attachments/whatsapp-video-2020-07-28-at-7-23-08-pm-mp4.73970/

Even the cat got scared.

 

[Griswalduk]

When I started setting up my system I used @wittaj recommendations to begin with. This is a good starting point and I'm sure has set many on the right track. Thanks btw

With my set up I did experience problems at night when the outside LED security lights came on. I was able to mitigate this by fixing the shutter speed instead of giving it a range.

From memory shutter is set to 6 - 6 instead of 0 - 8.3

I'm not sure if I've explained this correctly so I'll hand over to others for input.

Has anybody else tried this method at night to overcome the camera adjusting to the light conditions?

 

[wittaj]

Yes there are certainly configurations to overcome the adjusting light conditions.

A fixed shutter is one way, and a shutter of 6-6 is certainly fast enough that you will get a good capture of the perp.

The biggest issue is folks that want complete darkness and then motion sensor lights. In some instances a 6-6 shutter will be too fast with no light so the image is dark.

And of course the sensor of the camera comes into play as well if one is using IR and B/W until the light kicks on and then it switches to color - some cameras are problematic and will white out right when you would get the good capture.

Best practice would be to either keep the lights on all night or run the camera at night in all color or all B/W. But certainly test it to make sure.

Perps know that nobody pays attention to motion sensor lights coming on - it happens too frequently with a cat or raccoon or what not that nobody is alarmed.

My suggestion is if one wants to run motion sensing lights, then also get a camera with a speaker or add an external speaker to delay a recording similar to what I linked above. Won't deter the strung out druggie, but might scare off someone that isn't 100% committed to a life of crime.

 

[The Automation Guy]

While I haven't added a Color4k camera to my system yet, I do believe it would be helpful to have one on "overwatch" in critical areas and therefore a wide angle camera would be fine. Not every camera needs to be in color, but having one for each "group" of cameras allows you to have a color reference for cars and people, even if the camera itself can't provide "identifiable" footage. I'd still have a bunch of good quality IR cameras that are more "targeted" in their focal lengths to ensure good identifiable footage, but having a color reference to know that the perp on my IR cameras is wearing a red shirt and not a blue one would be helpful.

 

[Griswalduk]

Just reading wittaj's post and I forgot to mention I'm using the time schedule and switching between day / night profiles. Day is obviously colour and night is set to stay B/W.

The colour 4k camera looks very interesting does anyone know how it behaves with street lighting ( sodium hence yellow colour )

 

[defenestrate]

Thank you all for the replies

I'll 110% stand with Griswalduk and, I think every newb ever, in saying thank you to the IPCT forums! I don't want to list particular members because I know for sure I'll miss somebody haha. Even the newb questions and discussions are helpful. I'm definitely no pro, but I feel much more enlightened and confident to choose the right set up.

I thought about this some more and what you guys have said.

With the camera settings, they might all be the same, I'm not sure, but in particular the Color4k, is everything adjustable and lockable kind of like a DSLR in manual mode?

Thinking out loud here because I'm either insane or need a sanity check to be sure... Every camera needs light at night right, the only differences between that light being IR and white are:

IR Light:

• Invisible to the eye
• Won't disturb the neighbors
• Won't attract bugs so much
• Can literally be a floodlight shining 200m down the road and won't blind anybody
• Black and white video

White Light:

• Visible to the eye
• May disturb the neighbours
• Will attract bugs
• A floodlight shining 200m down the road will cause an accident
• Colour video

Reliability and power draw wise, they're all but the same by the looks of it. If a white LED failed it would need replacing or external lighting added, if an IR LED failed it would need replacing or external IR lighting added - same boat either way.

Considering the neighbours and bugs, I think IR is going to be the go for night time. I do like that idea of the colour overwatch type camera to capture clothing/vehicle colours. That could be just as important for evidence as a good IR snapshot of a face. And I guess that was really what I was trying to solve.

So, following what you guys have said and all the guides and info, the thought theory is:

• 5442 Z4E to zoom in on the target access ways e.g. the sides of the house, driveway, IR for night time
• 5442 ZE potentially for the tighter spots where a wider angle view than the Z4E is needed, IR for night time
• 5241 Z12E for LPR if there's no 4MP version out by the time I get around to it
• Color4K (maybe) for overview of the areas covered above, with night settings all locked and tuned if possible to not need to adjust the image when sensor lights come on to capture colour details, which will mean a very dark/black picture until the sensor lights are triggered. Something to experiment with.

I guess if that idea worked than it wouldn't even really be necessary to use the Color4k if there's sufficient lighting from the sensor lights. Maybe for this purpose the 5842 with a longer depth of field would be better. Heck even a lower resolution than 4K would probably be alright for color details so long as the camera settings are tuned and locked. But, the biggest attraction to the higher resolution for me is increasing the identification range whilst still keeping a wider overview, which is handy for a spot like the front door, more so during the day when the door knockers are around.

Am I insane or does does it sound reasonable?

I remember seeing an IR/colour combo camera here a while back, where the IR image was blended with whatever colour image the camera could pick up. What ever happened to that idea?

 

[wittaj]

IR picks up bugs as well. The older style was notorious for collecting spider webs all over your image and it triggering all night. Not so much with the new design.

The IR bounces off of bugs much more easier than white light too LOL. And rain as well.

The T5449H-ASE-D2 2.8mm fixed lens is still a great camera where the object would be in a backlit condition at night. I have one and it is great. But it is "new" tech and some are slow to jump on board until there are more users.

 

[defenestrate]

Ahh I see. Catch 22 isn't it haha.

That's the one thank you! I'll have a browse of that one again too. I did see that in your list of recommendations. For some reason I didn't realise that was the dual sensor camera lol.

 

[sebastiantombs]

The solution with IR lighting is to mount an auxiliary IR off to the side, or above or below, the camera by a foot or two. That keeps the bugs away from the lens and dramatically reduces reflections by rain and snow.

All of the cameras you listed allow setting multiple aspects of the video. Exposure, gain, compensation, brightness, contrast, saturation and on and on. The advantage to them is that they actually accept and maintain those settings unlike "consumer" grade cameras that show those settings, let you change them, then revert to what the firmware thinks is the right setting.