feedback comparing the T54IR-ZE-S3 with B52IR-Z12E-S2 for patio backyard

[26vLHz]

currently using one color4k-t180 in middle of a covered patio and flanked by 2 IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3 each side of the patio.

i also have 2 B52IR-Z12E-S2 in a crossfire placement pov above garage/driveway. i do like their imaging better than the IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3 on the patio, but that could just be my config choices. i mention that b/c "thinking" of replacing the T54IR-ZE-S3's with B52IR-Z12E-S2.

q0). thoughts on replacing the T54IR-ZE-S3's with B52IR-Z12E-S2's for patio?

q1). wanting to replace two outdated cams in my garage. curious, would the T54IR's be recommended for two vehicle garage?

q2). is the T54IR-ZE-S3 a good cam for one's front door area? other recommendations?

thanks & regards,
wb

 

[wittaj]

The 54IR S3 series is considered by many here to be the best bang for the buck.

All comes down to distances you are trying to cover and whether it is Detect and Observe or Recognize and Identify.

If the distance is within 15ish feet, then the 54IR 3.6mm fixed cam is the better choice.

If the distance is within 30ish feet, then the ZE is the better choice.

If the distance is up to 50ish feet, the 54IR-Z4E is the better choice.

If the distance is greater than 60ish feet, then the Z12E is the better choice.

 

[26vLHz]

i see on empiretech01 those are the first 4 best selling cams. appreciate the condensed helpful answer!

 

[wittaj]

Many here feel those are the best cameras on the market right now!

 

[Flintstone61]

You can have my Z4E's When you pry them from my.....Cold Vinyl Siding.

 

[26vLHz]

Many here feel those are the best cameras on the market right now!

good to know. really helps to have knowledgeable users here filter out some of the noise, so thanks for that.! i do see those mentioned quite a bit here.

 

[26vLHz]

You can have my Z4E's When you pry them from my.....Cold Vinyl Siding.

well then, most definitely a positive recommendation if there ever was one. i looked at the specs on empiretech01 of the B54IR-Z4E & B52IR-Z12E. a few differences, including the numbers for the DORI. regarding DORI, i'm not versed at all, gotta read up on that more. though looking at the specs i'm thinking i'll get a Z4E, and compare it to the Z12E's i have. could be the Z4E may be a better fit for flanking the T180 on the back patio? trial & error at this point for me. as @wittaj writes, generally the distance & DORI, are the key factors with the 54IR-s3 series. appreciate it.

 

[wittaj]

The Z12E is 2MP with a 60mm focal length and the Z4E is 4MP with a smaller 32mm focal length.

So the distance the Z12E can reach is almost double the Z4E, so you chose the camera based on the distance you want to IDENTIFY. Within the 60ish feet range, go with the Z4E. If longer go with the Z12E.

DORI is a nice tool in the tool box, but these numbers are under ideal situations with a marketing spin and real world experiences of DORI is that those numbers are established by the manufacturer and are based on best case scenarios like an object not moving and ideal light conditions.

Real world you should cut them in half during daytime and cut that half in half or more at night time.

As an example, our long time resident camera expert Wildcat ran the Dahua 4K/X 8MP 1/1.2" sensor thru the paces. Keep in mind this 4K/X camera is incredible.

He had the 3.6mm version and here is the screenshot from 40 feet in the ideal daylight and standing still, which based on DORI numbers is the supposed IDENTIFY distance for this camera with the 3.6mm lens and I think most of would agree that this is not IDENTIFY quality, even if digitally zoomed in:

I have the 4K/X and 4K/T and they are incredible cameras, but I wouldn't use it for IDENTIFY past 15-20 feet, or half of what the DORI number is.


Without knowing what your goals of the camera is, this thread is used as the go to for the new person here outlining the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value/best bang for the buck in terms of price and performance day and night. It might be a 2MP camera in some instances.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

And coupled with that thread is this great thread which will show why all of the same 2.8 or 3.6mm cameras is the wrong choice:

i-want-2-8mm-cameras-everywhere-to-see-everything-this-is-why-you-need-specific-fovs-with-purposeful-focal-lengths.70053/

We would encourage you to look at those threads in detail.

It will probably raise more questions than answers LOL.

 

[Flintstone61]

Z4e's that really could be used for over view cams. max zoom. probably about 60ish feet.
it would be nice if they were in accompaniment with z-12's that are absolutely tuned to B&W 24/7 fixed focus 1/2000 Shutter speed. ( 1 JOB)
But I'd want to hide any additional cams on that side of the house in something.
as soon as you fuck around with insisting on Color/Day IR/Night you can often have focus hunting issues or just plain day night focus differences in the Day settings and the NIGHT settings.
I found the only way to keep it's ass wired tight at all times was 100% B&W 24/7 IR manually ON.
Let another camera do the job of color make model.

 

[Flintstone61]

Salty Bent Plates in photo below.
If your focus is relatively dialed in, there will some frame(s) that can get dirty plates. Some cars have no plates, some have fake Temp Plates.
Clean ones really pop out. I'm getting help up the street by a Gi-hugic LED street light that is bouncing photons off the reflective plate.
tuning your settings will help you benefit from other light sources that might shine at night regularly.
View attachment 20250128-0735-54.0999395.mp4

 

[26vLHz]

The Z12E is 2MP with a 60mm focal length and the Z4E is 4MP with a smaller 32mm focal length.

So the distance the Z12E can reach is almost double the Z4E, so you chose the camera based on the distance you want to IDENTIFY. Within the 60ish feet range, go with the Z4E. If longer go with the Z12E.

DORI is a nice tool in the tool box, but these numbers are under ideal situations with a marketing spin and real world experiences of DORI is that those numbers are established by the manufacturer and are based on best case scenarios like an object not moving and ideal light conditions.

Real world you should cut them in half during daytime and cut that half in half or more at night time.

As an example, our long time resident camera expert Wildcat ran the Dahua 4K/X 8MP 1/1.2" sensor thru the paces. Keep in mind this 4K/X camera is incredible.

He had the 3.6mm version and here is the screenshot from 40 feet in the ideal daylight and standing still, which based on DORI numbers is the supposed IDENTIFY distance for this camera with the 3.6mm lens and I think most of would agree that this is not IDENTIFY quality, even if digitally zoomed in:

I have the 4K/X and 4K/T and they are incredible cameras, but I wouldn't use it for IDENTIFY past 15-20 feet, or half of what the DORI number is.


Without knowing what your goals of the camera is, this thread is used as the go to for the new person here outlining the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value/best bang for the buck in terms of price and performance day and night. It might be a 2MP camera in some instances.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

And coupled with that thread is this great thread which will show why all of the same 2.8 or 3.6mm cameras is the wrong choice:

i-want-2-8mm-cameras-everywhere-to-see-everything-this-is-why-you-need-specific-fovs-with-purposeful-focal-lengths.70053/

We would encourage you to look at those threads in detail.

It will probably raise more questions than answers LOL.

real world application appears to contradict the DORI numbers. i'll look over the links. but as you say i'll have more questions. esp with regards to 2.8 & 3.6.
i just ordered a T54IR-AS-S3/2.8mm to try at my front door. and a couple of Z12E-S2 for longer range. i was, as i posted, maybe going to get a Z4E-S3 but instead went with the Z12E-S2's. i have a couple of T54IR-ZE's that i haven't mounted. i can experiment with the AS and ZE at the front door and see which do better, though that might be subjective.

 

[26vLHz]

Z4e's that really could be used for over view cams. max zoom. probably about 60ish feet.
it would be nice if they were in accompaniment with z-12's that are absolutely tuned to B&W 24/7 fixed focus 1/2000 Shutter speed. ( 1 JOB)
But I'd want to hide any additional cams on that side of the house in something.
as soon as you fuck around with insisting on Color/Day IR/Night you can often have focus hunting issues or just plain day night focus differences in the Day settings and the NIGHT settings.
I found the only way to keep it's ass wired tight at all times was 100% B&W 24/7 IR manually ON.
Let another camera do the job of color make model.


View attachment 212981View attachment 212980

it would be nice if they were in accompaniment with z-12's that are absolutely tuned to B&W 24/7 fixed focus 1/2000 Shutter speed. ( 1 JOB)
But I'd want to hide any additional cams on that side of the house in something.
as soon as you fuck around with insisting on Color/Day IR/Night you can often have focus hunting issues or just plain day night focus differences in the Day settings and the NIGHT settings.
I found the only way to keep it's ass wired tight at all times was 100% B&W 24/7 IR manually ON.
Let another camera do the job of color make model.


View attachment 212981View attachment 212980

Z4e's that really could be used for over view cams. max zoom. probably about 60ish feet.
it would be nice if they were in accompaniment with z-12's that are absolutely tuned to B&W 24/7 fixed focus 1/2000 Shutter speed. ( 1 JOB)
But I'd want to hide any additional cams on that side of the house in something.
as soon as you fuck around with insisting on Color/Day IR/Night you can often have focus hunting issues or just plain day night focus differences in the Day settings and the NIGHT settings.
I found the only way to keep it's ass wired tight at all times was 100% B&W 24/7 IR manually ON.
Let another camera do the job of color make model.


View attachment 212981View attachment 212980

i was gonna purchase a Z4 and test it against the Z12E's i have. configuration is certainly key, as with many tech things, and these cams come with a boat load of conf opts. tough reading some threads here it does seem the general wisdom is to conf to B&W. i've seen various shutter speed suggestions but that could be for various cams too and not just the Z12E's.

Z4e's that really could be used for over view cams. max zoom. probably about 60ish feet.
it would be nice if they were in accompaniment with z-12's that are absolutely tuned to B&W 24/7 fixed focus 1/2000 Shutter speed. ( 1 JOB)
But I'd want to hide any additional cams on that side of the house in something.
as soon as you fuck around with insisting on Color/Day IR/Night you can often have focus hunting issues or just plain day night focus differences in the Day settings and the NIGHT settings.
I found the only way to keep it's ass wired tight at all times was 100% B&W 24/7 IR manually ON.
Let another camera do the job of color make model.

i was gonna purchase a Z4 and test it against the Z12E's i have. though i ended up getting the Z12E's. configuration is certainly key, as with many tech things, and these cams come with a boat load of conf opts. though reading some threads here it does seem the general wisdom is to conf to B&W, all things considered. i've seen various shutter speed suggestions but that could be for various cams too and not just the Z12E's as you have it at 1/2000.

i tested and played with confs on a couple of 54IR-ZE's. day-night, auto-manual, didn't return images i thought i should be getting. day was ok. night B&W sucked. could be my conf and/or placement. the T180-4k is really nice though. the ZE's and T180 are in same location on patio that has a roof. gonna put the new Z12E's flanking the T180 and try the 100% B&W IR manual ON.

the images above, that is Day/Color, yes? one can see the upper left corner of front plate bent a bit.

 

[26vLHz]

Salty Bent Plates in photo below.
If your focus is relatively dialed in, there will some frame(s) that can get dirty plates. Some cars have no plates, some have fake Temp Plates.
Clean ones really pop out. I'm getting help up the street by a Gi-hugic LED street light that is bouncing photons off the reflective plate.
tuning your settings will help you benefit from other light sources that might shine at night regularly.
View attachment 212984
View attachment 212983

the extra lighting helps. i have noticed that here. some areas have lights along walkways which really help the cameras. if one has the benefit of light sources that are on at night, what settings in conf are the most common to tweak regarding the extra light for Z12E | Z4E?

 

[wittaj]

In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.