Feedback on system

Brian Bain

Young grasshopper
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
5
Hi all,

I have been thinking about getting some security cameras for a long time now and have finally decided to get some and I'd like your feedback.

My priorities

  1. High quality night-time recordings, low ambient light
  2. See packages on the porch (10ft x 10ft area)
  3. See cars drive up to the house (30ft away)
  4. See card drive down the street Cars will be about 50ft away, there are street lights
  5. Smooth video, 30fps minimum I assume based on what I have seen on youtube


Camera choice so far: DS-2CD2342WD-I

Considered vivotek IB8381 but it didn't seem to be much better and it's much more expensive?

Are there other cameras that I should consider?

Environment:

  1. Wired network, I don't want any recording/wireless issues
  2. total of 6 cameras problably
    1. Porch
    2. Front driveway
    3. Front down driveway
    4. Front street
    5. Back yard - deck/door
    6. back yard - yard


Recording

  1. Via Blue Iris (is this a good choice?
  2. Server running windows with many TBs of space so I'll want to record 24x7 and keep weeks of footage


Budget: I'd rather not spend more than $1k per camera

Any thoughts? Any info I can provide to help? should i take pictures for more feedback?
 

bp2008

Staff member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
12,690
Reaction score
14,061
Location
USA
That Hikvision is a very good choice of camera, though it is very new and it may take a while to be shipped. Dahua also has some new 4MP cameras which have yet to be tested, but they cost quite a bit less so that is also an option. (Just FYI, I ordered a Dahua 4MP from cctv camera china about a week ago and it still has not shipped. Similar results from people buying the Hikvision 4MP cams). I would not touch the Vivotek camera. It is not cost effective. Not even close.

Consider different camera lens sizes for different cameras. For your porch, I would suggest a very wide lens (2.8 mm). Just remember, the wider the view, the closer an object will have to be to be captured in good detail. Get narrower lenses for cams that are looking further away. 12mm is one of the narrowest that is readily available, and it is one you might choose if you want to read license plates on the street. The default lens size in most cams is around 4mm and this is usually a good choice for most cams.

Blue Iris is a good choice, just make sure you have a powerful enough CPU. For 6 cams at 30 FPS each, you want at least a desktop i5 system. Make sure whatever you buy that it scores higher than about 6000 on cpubenchmark.net. I don't have much personal experience with i5 CPUs as I always go for the i7. You can get refurbished workstations with a good i5 CPU for $300-350 or an i7 version for close to $500. But I don't know what kind of storage system you'll be able to put into such a workstation. If you are going to buy all new hardware, I encourage you to wait a month or two for the Intel Skylake CPUs to come out as they will be more energy efficient than the current Haswell CPUs and likely not cost all that much more.
 

bp2008

Staff member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
12,690
Reaction score
14,061
Location
USA
In your other thread you mention that aliexpress is blocked in Washington state. That is some incredible bureaucratic BS if you ask me. Anyway Ebay and Amazon.com often have comparable deals but I haven't seen any of the new 4MP options on those sites yet. I expect most of the aliexpress sellers with these cams do not actually have them in stock, and aliexpress lets them get away with it whereas ebay and amazon will not. In other words, you'll have to wait for the cams to appear on ebay or amazon.
 

Brian Bain

Young grasshopper
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
5
thanks so much for the feedback!

would you recommend any camera I can get now? or should I wait? I see the 3MP cameras on Amazon. is the difference big enough I should wait?

super good feedback on the porch cameera, I didn't think about that. I will go wide then I guess then I should go for a narrower camera for the street camera.

Is blue iris the way to go for managing all the cameras?

any pointers on installing the cameras and the system?

yeah, the aliexpress is total BS, really frustrating!

the computer I am using is a HP DL180 server so the CPU should be sufficient. I am assuming with 6 cameras I could consumer 1tb of space each week so I'll likely need to trim the space every few months
 

bp2008

Staff member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
12,690
Reaction score
14,061
Location
USA
thanks so much for the feedback!

would you recommend any camera I can get now? or should I wait? I see the 3MP cameras on Amazon. is the difference big enough I should wait?
Hard to say. It could be months before the 4MP camera lineup is available to you with your inability to use aliexpress. Or it could be next week. They are a significant improvement over the currently available 3MP cameras, both in resolution and low light sensitivity. But they also cost more (the Hikvision 4MP cams do, anyway). You could have your system sooner and for less money if you buy 3MP cameras.

Is blue iris the way to go for managing all the cameras?
It is what I would recommend as long as your CPU is powerful enough. Blue Iris is very flexible and should support just about any camera now and in the future, plus it is loaded with nice features. Beats a traditional NVR any day for me.

any pointers on installing the cameras and the system?
Sure. Make sure Blue Iris is connected to a gigabit router or switch, though you can get away with 100 Mbps PoE switches to power the cameras, and save a little money. You already said you won't use WiFi which means the biggest source of trouble is already avoided.

the computer I am using is a HP DL180 server so the CPU should be sufficient. I am assuming with 6 cameras I could consumer 1tb of space each week so I'll likely need to trim the space every few months
You might be surprised. Depending on how old the particular server is, the CPU could be drastically underpowered for the load you want to put on it. Or it could be just fine. What is the CPU model?

As for storage, 1 TB each week is probably cutting it too short. Lets assume you go with 3MP cameras and plan to run them at 30 FPS. You will probably want a minimum of a 4 Mbps bit rate. If it was motion detection I would go higher than that, but for continuous recording it is often important to balance the bit rate. Multiply by 6 cameras and you have 24 Mbps of video data total. Multiply by 7 days and you have 1.8144 terabytes. (google search: 24 Mbps * 7 days) The good news is, Blue Iris can automatically delete the oldest files according to the storage rules you set, so you don't need to manually trim anything. I recommend you get Western Digital Purple hard drives unless you already have the drives.
 

Brian Bain

Young grasshopper
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
5
Wow, really appreciate the time you are spending helping me out, really appreciated!

Hard to say. It could be months before the 4MP camera lineup is available to you with your inability to use aliexpress. Or it could be next week. They are a significant improvement over the currently available 3MP cameras, both in resolution and low light sensitivity. But they also cost more (the Hikvision 4MP cams do, anyway). You could have your system sooner and for less money if you buy 3MP cameras.
Sounds like i should wait then, I would rather wait to get the best camera for my needs then get something that's not as good.

One more thing before i lock on this camera - would you recommend anything that is better? I'd be willing to spend up to $1k per camera if it really made a difference. Granted, if I did that I'd probably only get one or two cameras. I am thinking the porch camera wouldn't need to be anything fancy as it's a small FOV and there is always light.

It is what I would recommend as long as your CPU is powerful enough. Blue Iris is very flexible and should support just about any camera now and in the future, plus it is loaded with nice features. Beats a traditional NVR any day for me.
I definitely prefer it since I already have servers that it can run on and lots of storage. I am also willing to get more storage if I find I need a longer history.

should I consider only recording based on motion? I assume with blue iris that I could set it to motion but if it detects motion save the x minutes before the motion occurred. however, I am not sure how long x could be.

Given I haven't done this before I am not sure what I'll perfer so I want to understand what you have setup.

Sure. Make sure Blue Iris is connected to a gigabit router or switch, though you can get away with 100 Mbps PoE switches to power the cameras, and save a little money. You already said you won't use WiFi which means the biggest source of trouble is already avoided.
I have an enterprise grade switch but plan on using PoE. do you recommend a particular switch? given I want 6 cameras should I get one PoE that can handle all?

there there any gotchyas with installing the Camera in general? I'll be doing it myself so I'd like to be prepared for any issues people typically run into.

You might be surprised. Depending on how old the particular server is, the CPU could be drastically underpowered for the load you want to put on it. Or it could be just fine. What is the CPU model?
Xeon E5620 - http://ark.intel.com/products/47925/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5620-12M-Cache-2_40-GHz-5_86-GTs-Intel-QPI

I can get a second CPU also, looks like they are only $60 these days.

As for storage, 1 TB each week is probably cutting it too short. Lets assume you go with 3MP cameras and plan to run them at 30 FPS. You will probably want a minimum of a 4 Mbps bit rate. If it was motion detection I would go higher than that, but for continuous recording it is often important to balance the bit rate. Multiply by 6 cameras and you have 24 Mbps of video data total. Multiply by 7 days and you have 1.8144 terabytes. (google search: 24 Mbps * 7 days) The good news is, Blue Iris can automatically delete the oldest files according to the storage rules you set, so you don't need to manually trim anything. I recommend you get Western Digital Purple hard drives unless you already have the drives.
[/QUOTE]

Good point, do you find ourself wanting a full stream history or do you stick with motion recording? (assuming you could have plenty of storage)
 

bp2008

Staff member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
12,690
Reaction score
14,061
Location
USA
One more thing before i lock on this camera - would you recommend anything that is better? I'd be willing to spend up to $1k per camera if it really made a difference. Granted, if I did that I'd probably only get one or two cameras. I am thinking the porch camera wouldn't need to be anything fancy as it's a small FOV and there is always light.
Well Dahua has some 4K (8 megapixel) cameras you might be interested in. At full resolution they only do 7 frames per second though, which is kind of a bummer. They cost about $360 on aliexpress or apparently $426 from amazon or ebay, through the seller "securitycameraking". Though the latter may be unbranded, they look like the right ones. Search for 4K IP camera on either site to find them. Either way those cams cost more than I would be willing to pay. I have a hard time spending more than $200 for any cam unless it is PTZ, and then I draw the line at $800. Any benefit of going higher than that price is just not worth the money to me.

should I consider only recording based on motion? I assume with blue iris that I could set it to motion but if it detects motion save the x minutes before the motion occurred. however, I am not sure how long x could be.

Given I haven't done this before I am not sure what I'll perfer so I want to understand what you have setup.
Blue Iris lets you choose how many frames to pre-record before a motion event. It works okay in the tens and low hundreds of frames, and I am not sure if anyone has tried a full minute or longer of pre-event recording.

If you want, you can do a combination of both continuous recording and motion detection alerts.

I have an enterprise grade switch but plan on using PoE. do you recommend a particular switch? given I want 6 cameras should I get one PoE that can handle all?
Nah, I can't recommend anything particular with more than 4 PoE ports. Perhaps this one, because it is fairly cost-effective and has an extra port to connect back to your main network so you don't have to waste a PoE port on that job: http://amzn.com/B005GAATOG

For anything more than 8 cams I would recommend a gigabit switch, or at least a switch with gigabit uplink ports. But for 8 or fewer you should be fine with a 10/100 switch like that so long as you uplink to a gigabit network before reaching the Blue Iris machine.

You can also get big managed switches with cooling fans that have 12 to 24 PoE ports. I use one such switch in my garage.

any gotchyas with installing the Camera in general? I'll be doing it myself so I'd like to be prepared for any issues people typically run into.
A few. Some dome cameras are only 2-axis adjustable which means they must be mounted on a horizontal ceiling to provide proper viewing angles. If you buy a dome cam, make sure it is 3-axis adjustable.

For the network cables, try to get cables with pure copper conductors, not copper-clad aluminum (CCA). CCA has inferior conductivity and is more brittle and could lead to trouble.

If you buy Hikvision cameras that are Chinese region (indicated by the letters "CH" in the serial number), do not update their firmware. Such cameras are hacked to English by the seller, and attempting to update the firmware will most likely brick the cam.

Most cams come with a fixed static IP address and you need to get into each camera one at a time to change it. Also change the administration password when you do this, and check for any unwanted network features like UPnP or NAT-PMP that might be punching holes in your firewall. Some cams come with a dynamic DNS address preconfigured by the manufacturer, and some are configured to connect to their manufacturer's cloud service. I often find such features enabled by default and I always disable them.

Xeon E5620 - http://ark.intel.com/products/47925/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5620-12M-Cache-2_40-GHz-5_86-GTs-Intel-QPI
I can get a second CPU also, looks like they are only $60 these days.
It certainly could be worse. If electricity is terribly expensive where you live, you might consider picking up a Skylake i7 system in a month or two, but otherwise I bet that will be adequate, particularly if you put in a second CPU.

Good point, do you find ourself wanting a full stream history or do you stick with motion recording? (assuming you could have plenty of storage)
Sometimes I do want a full history because I have my motion detection set less sensitive to minimize false alarms and sometimes it misses something I want to see. But I do not like the clutter of clips that you get with continuous recording, so I have a second machine also running a copy of Blue Iris, configured to continuously record the sub streams from 4 cameras. It does nothing else and doesn't even get looked at unless I want to go back and find something. This is rare, but it does happen.
 
As an Amazon Associate IPCamTalk earns from qualifying purchases.

Brian Bain

Young grasshopper
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
5
So I pulled the trigger on two of the 3MP HikVision cameras to get me started.

Well Dahua has some 4K (8 megapixel) cameras you might be interested in. At full resolution they only do 7 frames per second though, which is kind of a bummer. They cost about $360 on aliexpress or apparently $426 from amazon or ebay, through the seller "securitycameraking". Though the latter may be unbranded, they look like the right ones. Search for 4K IP camera on either site to find them. Either way those cams cost more than I would be willing to pay. I have a hard time spending more than $200 for any cam unless it is PTZ, and then I draw the line at $800. Any benefit of going higher than that price is just not worth the money to me.

I am in your camp - looks like their frame rate even at 1080 is not that great so I don't think it's worth it.

Blue Iris lets you choose how many frames to pre-record before a motion event. It works okay in the tens and low hundreds of frames, and I am not sure if anyone has tried a full minute or longer of pre-event recording.

If you want, you can do a combination of both continuous recording and motion detection alerts.
doing both sounds like it will fit me well!

Nah, I can't recommend anything particular with more than 4 PoE ports. Perhaps this one, because it is fairly cost-effective and has an extra port to connect back to your main network so you don't have to waste a PoE port on that job: http://amzn.com/B005GAATOG

For anything more than 8 cams I would recommend a gigabit switch, or at least a switch with gigabit uplink ports. But for 8 or fewer you should be fine with a 10/100 switch like that so long as you uplink to a gigabit network before reaching the Blue Iris machine.

You can also get big managed switches with cooling fans that have 12 to 24 PoE ports. I use one such switch in my garage.
I went ahead and got that switch. wow you got lots of ports, you running that many cameras?

A few. Some dome cameras are only 2-axis adjustable which means they must be mounted on a horizontal ceiling to provide proper viewing angles. If you buy a dome cam, make sure it is 3-axis adjustable.

For the network cables, try to get cables with pure copper conductors, not copper-clad aluminum (CCA). CCA has inferior conductivity and is more brittle and could lead to trouble.

If you buy Hikvision cameras that are Chinese region (indicated by the letters "CH" in the serial number), do not update their firmware. Such cameras are hacked to English by the seller, and attempting to update the firmware will most likely brick the cam.

Most cams come with a fixed static IP address and you need to get into each camera one at a time to change it. Also change the administration password when you do this, and check for any unwanted network features like UPnP or NAT-PMP that might be punching holes in your firewall. Some cams come with a dynamic DNS address preconfigured by the manufacturer, and some are configured to connect to their manufacturer's cloud service. I often find such features enabled by default and I always disable them.
Great tips, will keep it in mind. I am hoping to get the cameras & switch sometime in the next week (they shipped today) so hopefully I'll get it up and running right away and then find a good time to do that actual install (it gets hot so I need to do it late or early so I don't bake in the attic).

It certainly could be worse. If electricity is terribly expensive where you live, you might consider picking up a Skylake i7 system in a month or two, but otherwise I bet that will be adequate, particularly if you put in a second CPU.
I'll upgrade if I see a problem. As you pointed out I definitely would like to see a more energy efficient system but for overall value and manageability they are a good choice for me. i clocked the power consumption at around 160W for the whole system and I have two of them so they are definitely expensive. As a side note my calculations show that over a 5yr period the over whelming cost of a storage server is power (not disks) so it's something to keep an eye on.

Sometimes I do want a full history because I have my motion detection set less sensitive to minimize false alarms and sometimes it misses something I want to see. But I do not like the clutter of clips that you get with continuous recording, so I have a second machine also running a copy of Blue Iris, configured to continuously record the sub streams from 4 cameras. It does nothing else and doesn't even get looked at unless I want to go back and find something. This is rare, but it does happen.
How much storage do you have then? I assume is residential use?
 
As an Amazon Associate IPCamTalk earns from qualifying purchases.

bp2008

Staff member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
12,690
Reaction score
14,061
Location
USA
I am running 16 cameras out of my 24-PoE switch. 5 more cams being powered by other means. I live in an area where electricity is extremely cheap. Close to 6 cents per Kilowatt hour :) A lot of people pay 3-4 times that!

My main BI system has several terabytes free, but never uses it. My motion detection is not triggered all that often, because yes it is residential use. So it is about 350 GB going all the way back to last September (10 months!) when I had to rebuild my storage system after RAID failure.

My secondary BI system is saving to a 1 TB external drive, 4 low bit rate sub streams continuously. One week of video is coming up around 250 GB.
 

fenderman

Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
36,908
Reaction score
21,295
@Brian Bain, what are your electric rates? 160w is a power hog..a more modern haswell i5 that is more powerful than that idles a 16-30w (depending on model) and will hit about 50 -60 under some load...If your rates are high you can buy a new system and make your money back in a bit over a year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brian Bain

Young grasshopper
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
5
Oh man @fenderman - you are going to make me look at the numbers aren't you? I have a big spreadsheet of different sized drives and ultimate the TCO $/GB and it's all about power.

You are totally right, I should upgrade and I should upt 6TB drives in the server, that's how I lower my cost.

$0.095482/kWh
 
Last edited by a moderator:

fenderman

Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
36,908
Reaction score
21,295
Oh man @fenderman - you are going to make me look at the numbers aren't you? I have a big spreadsheet of different sized drives and ultimate the TCO $/GB and it's all about power.

You are totally right, I should upgrade and I should upt 6TB drives in the server, that's how I lower my cost.

$0.095482/kWh
Thats cheap..Im paying about 20c in NJ..dont forget to add the taxes and delivery fees in your calc..the power companies split the power cost and the distribution to make it look cheaper.
 

Brian Bain

Young grasshopper
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
5
Yeah, hydro here (WA state) makes power pretty cheap.

I didn't add those since I'd pay those anyway (regardless of the server choice).

Still, your point is valid, the numbers would show it's worth upgrading.
 
Top