Ghosting on playback

steveh72

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Hi, I have a Hikvision DS-7204HWI set up with 3 x 1000 tvl cameras. I have messed around with various settings and cannot get any decent playback quality. Viewing live quality is fine.
I have tried stock/default settings, highest settings and anything inbetween. Even remote access and apps do the same. Is there something I am missing ? I have provided a youtube link ( hope this is allowed, apologies if not ) so you can see what its doing. It seems that any moving object seems to blur into the background or mix into it making it look like either when a person is walking, it makes them look like a ghost or cars seem to become part of the background.
Any direction would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

Sunny

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I had something similar I think..... I reduced digital noise reduction and I believe that fixed it.
 

icerabbit

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Something doesn't quite look realistic there. Could have something to do with Wide Dynamic Range too. Maybe too much sharpening. Certain elements look like ray traced outlines. Then for sharp recording of moving objects, you need more frames per second. In the case of a local road probably need 20+ fps to see a vehicle sharp.
 

steveh72

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Hi icerabbit, I will try that. I will reduce sharpening and noise reduction as suggested by sunny. Its been really frustrating trying to set this thing up as the cctv company didn't seem to have a clue. I will post back my settings with a new sample and let me know what you think is the problem. I am starting to think the dvr isn't up to it but I will try the new setting with hope. thanks
 

icerabbit

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Note that I'm not familiar with your unit and what exact settings you have available or not. I was just commenting on the image quality. Ultimately, if with proper coloring and appearance of the surroundings, the cars and pedestrians remain "ghosts" it probably will be due to total frame rate capacity of the dvr unit, with maybe a hint of video compression. If it is an fps limitation, you may have the option to compensate a little and give more frames per second to the road facing camera vs for instance a back yard facing one.
 

nayr

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looks like a very low bitrate recording and cant keep up with the motion at that bandwidth and quality settings.
 

aster1x

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I have a HIK DS-2cd2332 3Mpixel camera with firmware 5.1.6 connected to a HIK NVR DS7604NI-SEP with firmware 2.3.9beta and I have the same ghosting and poor night imaging. Here are sample pics. Notice the behind the should at the day pic and the trail behind the girl at night pics.
shoulder day.jpg back night1.jpg back night 2.jpg

My camera record quality settings are
camera record quality settings.jpg

and my camera image settings are

camera image settings.jpg

Any help appreciated..

EDIT: I found the problem. It is the digital noise reduction filter at the camera. When it is off there is no ghosting at all. The higher the noise reduction is, the worse the ghosting effect becomes. The ghosting has nothing to do with the frame rate or the I-interval.
 
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steveh72

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I have set the bandwidth to all maximum settings. Are you suggesting I should lower the bandwidth ? :)
 

aster1x

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I have set the bandwidth to all maximum settings. Are you suggesting I should lower the bandwidth ? :)
No. Bandwidth does not affect the ghosting.

Look at my previous post the picture of the camera image settings. Turn off the digital noise reduction.
Please post a capture with ghosting before you change your settings and a capture after you change your settings. If you have an analogue camera (please specify the model) then the digitisation of the analog signal takes place in the DVR. Look for similar settings in the DVR rescording or image settings.
 

icerabbit

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Night imaging is always going to be poorer.

Suggest trying 1920x1080, 4096kbps, fixed rate, turning the smart auto this and that off. Then try to engage one at a time.
 

catseyenu

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EDIT: I found the problem. It is the digital noise reduction filter at the camera. When it is off there is no ghosting at all. The higher the noise reduction is, the worse the ghosting effect becomes. The ghosting has nothing to do with the frame rate or the I-interval.
Another good job of trouble shooting, thank you!
Have you found a workable level in noise reduction?
 

aster1x

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Another good job of trouble shooting, thank you!
Have you found a workable level in noise reduction?
Yes it is ... 0. Sorry but the noise reduction filter of HIK ... sucks. It is a bit grainy but the ghosting effect is even more visible at moving objects. Even I set the filter at 20 the distorion at the image rendered the faces unrecongnisable. The filter make a still picture even better but when you have an event it means you have a moving object.
So another nice looking feature of HIK cameras is essentially useless.
 

catseyenu

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Out of curiosity, which lens is this on?
I haven't noticed ghosting on my 4mm lens but see it on my 2.8mm lens (it's also blurry day & night).
 

aster1x

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So much for that theory, thanks!
Every camera consists of the three main components that affect the overall quality of the camera. First is the lens, secondly the CMOS sensor that converts the light into a series of pixels, third is the microprocessor that controls the sensor, the memory for temporary storage (nothing to do with final video storage) and the communications with the IP world and fourthly other ancilliary components like nemory, PoE management etc.

The lens and the sensor are the main component that determine the resolution and visual quality of the image in the video.
The sensor and the microprocessor determine the frate rate and the bitrate of the video image.
The microprocessor determines the maximum bitrate, the compression H264 quality and the various detection analysis techniques plus any other features in the firmware.

There are several manufacturers that produce interchangeable components with varying quality. For example one microprocessor that HIK uses is the Ambarella A5s. This microprocessor is compatible with sensors from Aptina, Sony and Omnivision. It is very feasible that a manufacturer may change one of these components in a production line for various reasons without affecting in general the overall quality of the final product and without changing the model number. (Any car may use oil from different manufacturers with varying costs. These oils are not the same but the car still drives the same!!)

The ghosting effect originates from the sensor and it has to do with the refreshing of the image on the cells of the sensor. These cells require a specific time to charge from the incident light and another time to discharge in order to change for the next cycle. If you do not discharge completely the cell, then part of the light from the previous light intance remains in it and then the light from the next light instance comes in and is stored on top of it. This is the ghosting effect. It is only apparent when light changes (i.e. a moving object). In a still image there is no significant change in the image and therefore no visual ghosting, although technically the ghosting is still there in the sensor cell. However if you do discharge the sensor cell completely (ie.e fast) then you allow the inherent noise of the cell to become apparent in the digitisation process and now you have the noise or grain in the image. Therefore if you try to eliminate the noise at the sensor level, at the extreme levels you allow the sensor to introduce ghosting at the image.

There are other more sophisticated techniques that they allow the sensor to produce the noise in order to avoide the sensor ghosting but they eliminate the noise at the processing stage after the image captring from the sensor. Now the more processing required, the more powerfull (and expensive) a microprocessor must be and if you reach the processing abilities of the processor, then you have to reduce the frame rate and the bitrate and the compression quality factors in order to produce a video.

It is quite feasible that your camera and my camera may have a different sensor from a different manufacturer that behaves completely different, hence thats why you do not see ghosting in your 4mm camera and I do (assuming of course that everything else like model, firmware etc are the same). Unfortunately we can not know which component every camera may have.
Also do not confuse the visual ghosting with the visual blurring. These effects are different and their elimination requires different techniques.

I hope the above explains in light terms the imaging conversion process and the differences in visual quality.
 
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