Hello all. Just landed in this forum and I'm on the cusp of not knowing what I'm doing.

[in2it]

I have purchased a package camera system which I think (rightly or wrongly) works well - POE NVR and 8 cams).
I'm tossing up whether to use the software that comes with the package or get into BI.
I need you to sell me on BI !
I'd also like you to point me at more reading material to help with the decision.

The onboard NVR/Cam software seems to manage the system quite well but some options are mystifying me.
What is :
Main Stream and Sub Stream,
Encode format can be chosen 264, 264+, 265 and 265+
Protocol can be set to N1, ONVIF or RTSP
Channel encode mode can be Video Only or AV Stream.

I struggle on. Thanks for your time.

 

[wittaj]

We don't need to sell you on BI - it will be superior to the software that came with your package.

It has a trial so download and see what you think..

I found with DVR/NVRs that I had over an 8-10 year span before I moved to BI that I was more reactive with an NVR, meaning I only looked at the footage LONG AFTER something happened like a neighbor asking if my cams caught anything. The false triggers and pulling up the slow interface and what not just got too time consuming so I could go months without looking at it. Most people I know turn off notifications from their NVR because they are just too many.

With BI - I only get notifications for actual events - not shadows, leaves, rain, etc. I am notified BEFORE someone comes to my door. In addition to knowing IF someone came close to my house in the middle of the night, in literally less than 30 seconds I can scrub the entire nighttime videos for anything unusual. It could take longer than that just to key in the search parameters on the NVR....and then wait and wait and wait...

I have found the customization to set up motion triggering events to be much more granular with BI than an NVR.

Granted much of my experience was before AI came into the NVRs, but even before that, I had my motion detection down in BI to not give me false triggers. Could never get anywhere close to that with the NVR.

@Flintstone61 can share his experience. LOL

 

[Flintstone61]

+1^

 

[Flintstone61]

I was frustrated for the same reasons as @wittaj. But I am managing a 74 unit Condo with my camera system. As time went on and requests to review video " incidents" became extensively time consuming to retrieve on the " Eye Max" System. So then I went to a DVR
from Nightowl ( 16 channel) and began removing black and white 704 x 480 resolution cameras and replacing them with 2MP color. But while this was an improvement. I never wanted to go look at the videos after the weekend, because it was a pain in the ass.
When i decided to try BI, I had an old PC that brought to work, and pulled a few cables, and bought an old POE switch from ebay. First thing that became evident is the "real time" recent motion events scroll on the left side of the screen.
Everytime I walked into my office i could see what was going on. UPS, FEDEX, Mail. Furniture and Appliance vendors etc...
It quickly became a management tool for my job.
I expanded to cover the outdoor property so i could see if i need to take care of any issues.

 

[Flintstone61]

Now I go in on Monday's and look at the weekend trouble spots in 5-10 minutes at get on with my day. Totally worth it from a labor cost perspective.
It's like Giving eyes to a blind office staff. None of the office area's have Windows. Used to be the last to know when a branch fell in a parking lot, or on the lawn, or who was checking doors in the lots at night.
Do you wanna pay a guy $30 an/hr to watch videos or go do Maintenance work? ( id rather watch videos LOL)

 

[samplenhold]

Main Stream and Sub Stream,
Encode format can be chosen 264, 264+, 265 and 265+
Protocol can be set to N1, ONVIF or RTSP
Channel encode mode can be Video Only or AV Stream.

Main stream vs Sub Stream: Some cams can send multiple video 'streams' at different resolutions. In general, the Main Stream is the primary video stream most users will set at the cam's total resolution. Some software (like Blue Iris) can utilize more than one stream. In the BI case, the a lower resolution Sub Stream is used for monitoring the cam for alerts. Once the cam finds an alert (like motion), it goes to the full (Main) Stream. This reduces CPU utilization.

Encode Formats: H.264 is a good format that is less likely to have jitter but takes up more disk space than the H.265 formats.

Channel Encode, I imagine is Video only or both Audio and Video.

 

[Steve.L]

Once the cam finds an alert (like motion), it goes to the full (Main) Stream. <snip>

Could you elaborate on this? Admittedly, I still struggle to grasp the full details and effect/results of recording dual streams, but this now has me confused further; my understanding was something to the effect of, the VMS is recording BOTH streams, but only displaying the substreams "live," then, when playing back video clips in SINGLE SCREEN mode, THAT is the full-definition stream. But I interpret your statement to suggest that the system is ONLY recording the substream until motion is detected, at which time the VMS begins recording the mainstream. If this is in fact the case, then I can easily understand how substreams save CPU utilization

But, you can probably see where my initial confusion lies: recording a 1080 stream AND a 720 stream is, in effect, the same as recording two cameras, one at 1080 and the other at 720, is it not? Thus, I fail to see how this reduces CPU utilization when the effect on the VMS seems to be equivalent to adding another camera, albeit a lower res cam, but still, an additional camera, thus an additional load.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Flintstone61]

The lower CPU utilization People see when enabling Substreams, tells you something like that is happening.
If I run all 18 cam's at 20fps on mainstream, CPU would be 70% or higher. with no overhead for reviewing video. once she pegs 100% forget reviewing tape.
But when I ran substreams I get into the 14-17% range of CPU....The only thing I dont like it that some camera's on some situations don't "see" the motion that you were hoping for , and the mainstream kicks in late, and the money shot is missed because it was in substream.
BUT, this isn't happening on my Newest cams, it happens on my Jidetech 2MP PTZ overlooking the rear parking lot at a Condo, where we have had 5 Converter thefts attempted. This is not good. and for that reason that motherfucker now stays Mainstream on continous +triggered recording.

 

[Flintstone61]

substream rates are below 720...by the way....and I catch license plates on a 2MP 1080P cam at 10FPS. heres a screenshot of my home setups bit rates.

 

[in2it]

Thanks for the info.
Is my understanding correct ? If I go to BI, I frisby my POE NVR with its onboard software (and maybe the 4TB harddrive that I added to the package).

Wow that's a tough lesson.

Looking at the responses from my question, the biggest user problem seems to be false triggers and video retrieval. I had better have a good look at this onboard software and what it delivers. It's full of AI, motion (with 5 levels of sensitivity) and alarm detection, human face or body options, settable detection zones and 5 setting options for camera light and color. I've only been running the system for two days in stand alone mode. Yet to open the internet doorway.

The software security was driving my BI quest.

 

[wittaj]

Obviously that is your call LOL.

If you feel like the NVR software meets your needs and doesn't blast you with so many alerts that you end up ignoring them or turning them off, then go for it. Many have come here as recently as this month and said they turned off NVR alerts after a day they were getting so many false triggers.

IF your NVR isn't throttling the capabilities of the camera (and being a NOOB you may not know yet), depending on the brand, you may be able to bring the camera feeds from the NVR into BI, so the NVR essentially becomes your POE switch.

 

[sebastiantombs]

If the hard drive in the NVR is a surveillance rated drive you can pull it out and use it in a PC used for Blue Iris. Not quite as bad that way, but many times, especially in "package deals", they use standard rated hard drives. That can be OK, but isn't the best solution since a "regular" drive isn't rated for continuous writes like a surveillance rated drive is.

 

[samplenhold]

But I interpret your statement to suggest that the system is ONLY recording the substream until motion is detected, at which time the VMS begins recording the mainstream.

Sorry, I was not clear. In BI if you activate sub streams, the sub stream is used for detecting alerts. Even though both streams are recorded (which does not take much CPU), it is the action of inspecting the feed for alerts that takes up the most CPU. So using a reduced size stream to do that results in less CPU.

 

[wittaj]

Sorry, I was not clear. In BI if you activate sub streams, the sub stream is used for detecting alerts. Even though both streams are recorded (which does not take much CPU), it is the action of inspecting the feed for alerts that takes up the most CPU. So using a reduced size stream to do that results in less CPU.

It also depends on how you set up the recording - if you do continuous, you will get 24/7 mainstream.

If you do cont+alerts or cont+triggers then you get substream until alerted or triggered and then the mainstream.

 

[samplenhold]

If I go to BI, I frisby my POE NVR with its onboard software (and maybe the 4TB harddrive that I added to the package).

No.
Try out the NVR since you already have it. Many folks here are happy with their NVR. It just depends on your use case. If you decide down the road that the NVR is not giving you what you need, then investigate using BI. Both @wittaj and @sebastiantombs have given good comments on that.

 

[Steve.L]

Sorry, I was not clear. In BI if you activate sub streams, the sub stream is used for detecting alerts. Even though both streams are recorded (which does not take much CPU), it is the action of inspecting the feed for alerts that takes up the most CPU. So using a reduced size stream to do that results in less CPU.

Woah, okay, WOAHHHH, MIND BLOWN! MIND FULLY BLOWN! Did everybody know this? Really? How come nobody ever says this? Am I the only one that didn't know this???

Why isn't this in the Wiki? This is nowhere in the Wiki, not in the Cliff Notes, Not in Optimizing Blue Iris' CPU Usage, Not in the Sub Stream Guide, nowhere (except maybe buried in a thread or two).

Am I the only one that thinks this is important? Is it not important to understand HOW substreams reduce CPU usage?

For the record, here is the lead-in to the Sub Stream Guide:
What is a sub stream?
A sub stream is a secondary video stream provided by your IP camera. Sub streams are smaller (lower resolution and bit rate) and easier to process than main streams.

Why use sub streams if they are lower quality?
Sub streams typically reduce CPU usage by 5x to 20x and make a struggling system run great. The full quality main stream is still recorded and available when you need it.

When you configure a camera in Blue Iris to use a sub stream, Blue Iris will pull video from both the "main" and "sub" streams. Each stream is used for different purposes.

The main stream is used for:

• direct-to-disc recording
• single-camera live viewing and recording playback
• audio

The sub stream is used for everything else:

• multiple-camera viewing
• motion detection
• alert snapshots
• etc.

Nowhere in here does it tell us HOW, HOW substreams reduce CPU usage. If it's true, that the action of inspecting the feed for alerts is what takes up the most CPU, then THAT NEEDS TO BE IN HERE. Why so vague? Is this not important? This is vital information that helps new arrivals to this technology to grasp this stuff. Every single detail to these kinds of things should be in these write-ups, the HOW is so, sooo, sooooo important.

@samplenhold, thank you! Thank you!!!

 

[wittaj]

Woah, okay, WOAHHHH, MIND BLOWN! MIND FULLY BLOWN! Did everybody know this? Really? How come nobody ever says this? Am I the only one that didn't know this???

Why isn't this in the Wiki? This is nowhere in the Wiki, not in the Cliff Notes, Not in Optimizing Blue Iris' CPU Usage, Not in the Sub Stream Guide, nowhere (except maybe buried in a thread or two).

Am I the only one that thinks this is important? Is it not important to understand HOW substreams reduce CPU usage?

For the record, here is the lead-in to the Sub Stream Guide:
What is a sub stream?
A sub stream is a secondary video stream provided by your IP camera. Sub streams are smaller (lower resolution and bit rate) and easier to process than main streams.

Why use sub streams if they are lower quality?
Sub streams typically reduce CPU usage by 5x to 20x and make a struggling system run great. The full quality main stream is still recorded and available when you need it.

When you configure a camera in Blue Iris to use a sub stream, Blue Iris will pull video from both the "main" and "sub" streams. Each stream is used for different purposes.

The main stream is used for:

• direct-to-disc recording
• single-camera live viewing and recording playback
• audio

The sub stream is used for everything else:

• multiple-camera viewing
• motion detection
• alert snapshots
• etc.

Nowhere in here does it tell us HOW, HOW substreams reduce CPU usage. If it's true, that the action of inspecting the feed for alerts is what takes up the most CPU, then THAT NEEDS TO BE IN HERE. Why so vague? Is this not important? This is vital information that helps new arrivals to this technology to grasp this stuff. Every single detail to these kinds of things should be in these write-ups, the HOW is so, sooo, sooooo important.

@samplenhold, thank you! Thank you!!!

See my post above - it only records mainstream 24/7 if you record as continuous. If you select Cont+alerts or Cont+triggers then it will record substream until alerted or triggered and then record mainstream.

It is amazing what you can find in the BI help file:

If you are using a high-megapixel camera (4MP or higher) with an RTSP stream along with
direct-to-disc recording, you may specify a second video stream path. When used, this is
called a “sub-stream” and the primary stream is also known as the “main-stream”.
Decoding a high-MP video stream may use large amounts or CPU/GPU time and adding a
quantity of these cameras may be impossible on most systems. The software will use the
main-stream for audio and recording (and playback), but the sub-stream for everything else,
including motion detection and web services.

So it basically says that using a high MP video stream takes large amounts of CPU time to process stuff, which means that the lower the resolution, the less CPU intensive it is to accomplish the same task.

 

[samplenhold]

Nowhere in here does it tell us HOW, HOW substreams reduce CPU usage. If it's true, that the action of inspecting the feed for alerts is what takes up the most CPU, then THAT NEEDS TO BE IN HERE. Why so vague? Is this not important? This is vital information that helps new arrivals to this technology to grasp this stuff. Every single detail to these kinds of things should be in these write-ups, the HOW is so, sooo, sooooo important.

Where to begin...realize that this forum is all volunteer. We do not get paid for the content here. For the last year or so, BI has been rapidly changing. One of the biggest changes was the addition of the sub stream options. Personally, I did not jump on that for several months. My system was not hampered at the time. But after awhile, I did use sub streams on most (but not all) of my cams. If you use BI motion alerts, one needs to define those on the sub stream. So that was more changes to make.

Yes, the WIKI should be updated. But there have been many threads here that talk about sub streams. Also on Deep Stack, which I have yet to take advantage of. My interests are elsewhere at the moment. @wittaj discussed the other options for recording the streams and triggers. I just record 24/7 and do not worry about it.

So there has been a LOT of changes for months and updating things has not happened. I do not even know who is responsible for that task. Maybe you would like to volunteer to help?

 

[Steve.L]

I appreciate the replies. And while I got a chuckle out of it, I am clearly not the contributor to add these finer points to the Wiki and update things, but yes I realize it's all-volunteer around here, that's why I try to help in SOME way with my donation and membership, even though those funds don't go to "contributors." But that is how much I appreciate this site. I think substreams have been around for a while, at least a couple years, if I'm not mistaken. And yes I've seen that paragraph in the Help File, but honestly, that's the "what," not the "how" (I can understand why it's not in there, there's a TON of sh*t to cover as it is). And thanks for explaining the different circumstances BI can be dialed to utilize subs/mains (e.g. cont + trigger, etc). I have a feeling that info is not in the Help File either...but you've proven me wrong before!

 

[Steve.L]

Oh, and Flint-man, thanks for your reply too. Yep, 24/7 continuous for me!