Help Finding New High Res + Invisible IR Cameras

[havjoe]

Hello, I just found this forum and have been reading some posts.
Seems very helpful for newbies. I have just started learning about surveillance systems.
I purchased a home with a few outdoor cameras installed. There is one camera at the front gate, and three others around the perimeter of the property.

We'd like to continue having cameras in these areas, and since the property is large we would like to maybe add a few more cameras to add coverage to some blind spots.

So, here is our dilemma.

1. The cameras that are there now are generic 1.3mpx turret style IP cameras and the resolution is kind of crappy. We're thinking of going 3mpx or greater to capture crisper, sharper detail with and without digital zooming. We plan on purchasing a large NVR (I've read WD's Purple series hard drives are awesome for surveillance I/O), so data storage needs is not a concern of ours from a budget perspective.

2. The current cameras turn-on these two little red beady eyes after dark in order to engage its IR night vision capabilities. Any new (and replacement) cameras we get we want for them to be more discrete. Aesthetically, we want the cameras to be as "hidden" and "blended-in" as possible, specially after dark when we are entertaining guests.

From the research I've done to-date, #1 seems to be the easier of the two to solve. There are lots of options on the market for HD IP cameras.

However, #2 above seems to be what is making it really hard for me. It would be nice to find dark-colored cameras (black?) that don't deploy those red beady eyes at night, and have crisp and clear video in day or night.

Would love help, insights, recommendations, etc.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Kawboy12R]

Turn off the builtin IR and use 940nm illuminators in combination with white light if you really don't want the cams to intrude at night. You won't find a cam with effective built-in 940nm LEDs. 850nm is the visible kind (red glow) and it is used because cameras see it better per watt consumed. If you don't want large illuminators then get cameras that're better in low light so you might not require IR at all. They're considerably more $ than a xheaper cam and good illumination though.

 

[PSPCommOp]

If you go with the 940nm route, just make sure the cameras can catch it. Not all of them can, especially cheap ones. Just something to know before you buy so you don't set them up and see completely black screens with no illumination.

 

[havjoe]

Turn off the builtin IR and use 940nm illuminators in combination with white light if you really don't want the cams to intrude at night. You won't find a cam with effective built-in 940nm LEDs. 850nm is the visible kind (red glow) and it is used because cameras see it better per watt consumed. If you don't want large illuminators then get cameras that're better in low light so you might not require IR at all. They're considerably more $ than a xheaper cam and good illumination though.

Thanks Kawboy12R! Probably stupid question on my part: But, how do I know where to turn-off the built-in IR on my camera? Is it via software (I inherited BlueIris) or is there a switch somewhere on cameras that does this?

I will probably create a separate post for recommendations for high quality low-light camera. My budget can go up to $500 per camera.

 

[havjoe]

Turn off the builtin IR and use 940nm illuminators in combination with white light if you really don't want the cams to intrude at night. You won't find a cam with effective built-in 940nm LEDs. 850nm is the visible kind (red glow) and it is used because cameras see it better per watt consumed. If you don't want large illuminators then get cameras that're better in low light so you might not require IR at all. They're considerably more $ than a xheaper cam and good illumination though.

Is there some kind of metric/spec on cameras that can tell me how good (or bad) they are in low light

 

[PSPCommOp]

Is there some kind of metric/spec on cameras that can tell me how good (or bad) they are in low light

Read reviews on respectable sites. All camera companies are gonna say they offer "phenomenal" or "incredible" quality. And most are garbage. Theres more to it then just sensors too. IR bleed in domes is an issue, bullets with spider webs built in front of the lens under the cap are another.

 

[Kawboy12R]

Hikvision has their Darkfighter line. I have their DS-2CD4526FWD-IZ dome. It has internal IR but I keep it turned off. As long as I keep some white light turned on outside it works great. There's a software setting you access through the web interface to turn it off although Blue Iris offers some control as well. I paid $300 plus shipping for mine from China so they can be found in your budget range. There's a bullet format as well which performs better in outdoor locations, particularly exposed ones, than domes with plastic bubbles like the 4526. They have 1/1.8" sensors which gather more light than the 1/3" or 1/2.8" of cheaper cams. Dahua has their own comparable line which are also available from Chinese sellers for under $400.

If you want to try cheaper cams, IMX322 based cams see 940nm just fine, as do 3 and 4mp Hiks. It's weaker than 850 though, so larger floodlight formats are recommended. 850nm _IS_ much better, except for the red glow.

 

[havjoe]

Hikvision has their Darkfighter line. I have their DS-2CD4526FWD-IZ dome. It has internal IR but I keep it turned off. As long as I keep some white light turned on outside it works great. There's a software setting you access through the web interface to turn it off although Blue Iris offers some control as well. I paid $300 plus shipping for mine from China so they can be found in your budget range. There's a bullet format as well which performs better in outdoor locations, particularly exposed ones, than domes with plastic bubbles like the 4526. They have 1/1.8" sensors which gather more light than the 1/3" or 1/2.8" of cheaper cams. Dahua has their own comparable line which are also available from Chinese sellers for under $400.

If you want to try cheaper cams, IMX322 based cams see 940nm just fine, as do 3 and 4mp Hiks. It's weaker than 850 though, so larger floodlight formats are recommended. 850nm _IS_ much better, except for the red glow.

Thanks Kawboy12R! I'll take a look at the Darkfighter line. Do they make turret style or only dome style? Thanks again!

- - - Updated - - -

Read reviews on respectable sites. All camera companies are gonna say they offer "phenomenal" or "incredible" quality. And most are garbage. Theres more to it then just sensors too. IR bleed in domes is an issue, bullets with spider webs built in front of the lens under the cap are another.

Thank you! I'm just starting out. Will read all I can!

 

[Kawboy12R]

Bubble dome, bullet, or indoor.

 

[Brad_C]

Bubble dome, bullet, or indoor.

And box. I've got one of the first ones here with a 5-50mm Hikvision branded low light lens on it. It has better light performance than the dome, but only just. Still has nowhere near 120dB dynamic range though.

 

[Kawboy12R]

Yep. WDR is mediocre but low light is very good when comparing them to cheap mass market cams.

 

[Brad_C]

Yep. WDR is mediocre but low light is very good when comparing them to cheap mass market cams.

Agreed. Wish I'd only paid $300 for mine. List price here in the genuine Hik channel is over a grand.

 

[Kawboy12R]

It's an excellent buy at $300. Decent at $500. A grand? No thanks. There are better cameras once you approach the $1000 mark, and that's beyond my comfort budget for a single cam anyway.

 

[Masejoer]

On the cheap, I'd recommend some of those "4in 18W LED Work Lights" housings with the LEDs replaced with some 940nm emitters. The last few I ordered on Amazon came out to $6/ea for the housing, $1.50 for each of the 940nm 2.2W (1.5V 1.5A) LEDs. Total with electronics comes to under $20 for a 12W 940nm flood light, $25 with PoE support (splitter and LED driver).

You could also ditch the reflectors and try a couple of the "10W" (actual 5-6W at 5-6V each) multi-emitter LEDs. They come in the same package as other cheap 10W LEDs that actually match their power consumption spec. A couple of these will come much closer to a 12V PoE splitter Voltage, needing only a linear regulator or LED driver to use the LEDs.

I love those cheap "work lights" for their housings - they are well built, have decent heatsinking for up to Cree XHP70 LEDs run at 40W, and easily waterproof. I keep my IR emitters under the threshold of 15W PoE so they're easy to wire in - 12W lights are perfect. I do have 12 ports of PoE+, but they'd take all the available power on my switches if the 12 ports were maxed out.

 

[Kawboy12R]

That looks like a great idea for its own thread complete with links and pictures...

 

[Masejoer]

That looks like a great idea for its own thread complete with links and pictures...

No time right now, but maybe one day

 

[havjoe]

Hikvision has their Darkfighter line. I have their DS-2CD4526FWD-IZ dome. It has internal IR but I keep it turned off. As long as I keep some white light turned on outside it works great. There's a software setting you access through the web interface to turn it off although Blue Iris offers some control as well. I paid $300 plus shipping for mine from China so they can be found in your budget range. There's a bullet format as well which performs better in outdoor locations, particularly exposed ones, than domes with plastic bubbles like the 4526. They have 1/1.8" sensors which gather more light than the 1/3" or 1/2.8" of cheaper cams. Dahua has their own comparable line which are also available from Chinese sellers for under $400.

If you want to try cheaper cams, IMX322 based cams see 940nm just fine, as do 3 and 4mp Hiks. It's weaker than 850 though, so larger floodlight formats are recommended. 850nm _IS_ much better, except for the red glow.

Kawboy12R would you mind sending some screen captures of the resolution you are getting from your 2mp DS-2CD4526FWD-IZ dome Darkfighter?
The previous owners left a 3mp IP camera on our property that I'm now using and the resolution is pretty crappy beyond a few feet. So, I worry about downgrading the resolution to 2mp. This is a link to the camera, based on my googling the model number on the sticker that was left on the cable coming out of the camera.

http://easterncctv.com/shop/IP-IRD3002VF-W-2812-2-h.264-ed-series-2-super-ir-dome-ip-camera-3mp-30fps-2.8-12mm-vari-focal-lens-dwdr

Is this a cheap chinese camera? How can I tell?

 

[Kawboy12R]

It's a noname from what I can tell. I'll post a pic or two when I'm at home with a few minutes at the computer.

 

[Kawboy12R]

Here's a short video of a vehicle driving by. If you know vehicles you can tell the make and model and even what the rims look like. The cam is a DS-2CD4526FWD-IZ Darkfighter dome. The main lighting in the scene is the streetlight at the end of my driveway (mostly blocked at my vehicle by leaves) and two 7w household LED bulbs flanking the front bumper at either corner of the garage door. It's very dim at the front of the car without the two 7w bulbs. They make a big difference. There is no IR visible in the scene. The cam's internal IR is turned off. It's on a residential street so there a bit of extra light from other houses but not much. The second nearest streetlight is two poles away. IIRC gain is set to about 80. What sets it apart is that the camera is locked on 1/60th exposure at night. Detail on static objects is noticeably better at 1/30th but moving people are sharper at 1/60th and you can tell make/model of vehicles much better. Most night camera video you see will have the exposure set to auto, which is generally 1/30th at fastest but usually even lower to eliminate grain in static images. I know what my grass looks like. I want less blur on jerks wandering around causing trouble.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByifJwXvTr39UnN5blpQNVJ2Tlk/view?usp=sharing

 

[havjoe]

Here's a short video of a vehicle driving by. If you know vehicles you can tell the make and model and even what the rims look like. The cam is a DS-2CD4526FWD-IZ Darkfighter dome. The main lighting in the scene is the streetlight at the end of my driveway (mostly blocked at my vehicle by leaves) and two 7w household LED bulbs flanking the front bumper at either corner of the garage door. It's very dim at the front of the car without the two 7w bulbs. They make a big difference. There is no IR visible in the scene. The cam's internal IR is turned off. It's on a residential street so there a bit of extra light from other houses but not much. The second nearest streetlight is two poles away. IIRC gain is set to about 80. What sets it apart is that the camera is locked on 1/60th exposure at night. Detail on static objects is noticeably better at 1/30th but moving people are sharper at 1/60th and you can tell make/model of vehicles much better. Most night camera video you see will have the exposure set to auto, which is generally 1/30th at fastest but usually even lower to eliminate grain in static images. I know what my grass looks like. I want less blur on jerks wandering around causing trouble.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByifJwXvTr39UnN5blpQNVJ2Tlk/view?usp=sharing

Hey thanks Kawboy12R! I like what I'm seeing, especially knowing that the IR is turned off at the camera.
Have you turned on the IR? Is there much bleed due to the dome format?
I'm wondering how much "better" the video is with it on given the same lighting.